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To: WriteOn

Yes, Vatican II sought only to revise the Tridentine Mass and what the Council Fathers envisioned was something closer to the Tridentine Mass than what we have now. However, they did believe that the older form of the rite needed to be reformed, especially to enable the faithful to participate more fully in the Mass. (Remember, the rubrics of the Missal of Pius V contain NO role whatsoever for the laity.) Therefore, a "reform of the reform" could not mean just returning to the 1962 Missal since that would be a de facto rejection of the Council's call to reform the liturgy. This pope does not view the "reform of the reform" as ultimately returning to the Tridentine Mass.

I attended an indult Tridentine Mass for three years but I stopped since I after all that time I still had not learned the prayers (I don't know Latin) and could follow the Mass only with a missal and since I got tired of attending Mass as a silent spectator.


28 posted on 07/07/2006 5:10:33 AM PDT by steadfastconservative
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To: steadfastconservative; Claud

"I attended an indult Tridentine Mass for three years but I stopped since I after all that time I still had not learned the prayers (I don't know Latin) and could follow the Mass only with a missal and since I got tired of attending Mass as a silent spectator."

I agree that many TLM venues unfortunately perpetuate the "silent Mass" syndrome. However, many SSPX and FSSP churches as well as my own indult in Berlin, NJ (www.materecclesiae.org), have priests who put a lot of effort in to encourage congregational singing and responding during the Mass. There is nothing inherent in the Old Rite itself to prevent full and active participation. The silence you and I have witnessed is an unfortunate accident of history deeply rooted in the persecuted Irish Church which influenced American Catholicism. The great pre-V2 Liturgical Movement was making gradual progress is fostering a deep sense of liturgical life among the laity. Its goals were unfortunately never fulfilled and taken seriously off track after V2.

When I read Sacrosanctum Concilium, I envision the TLM with vernacular readings and a robust active participation in LATIN for the other parts of the Mass among the congregation. The 1965 Missal accomplished the first part but the second part was never given much consideration.

Lastly, my wife who had never been to a TLM before she met me, is now a herself a 3-year veteran of the TLM. She can read and pronounce Latin perfectly, even though she doesn't understand most of it. She also can sight read a fair amount of chant. Why? Because, she and I both put the effort in to learn. The same principle applies to a parish where a committed pastor puts the effort in to teach his parishioners and challenge them to learn Latin and sing chant.



29 posted on 07/07/2006 5:58:21 AM PDT by jrny
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To: steadfastconservative; jrny

I don't think we'll return to the Tridentine Rite mass as it was in the 1950s and preceding decades, but perhaps we will take up where we left off when the Novus Ordo broke into the liturgical renewal that was already in progress. It is unfortunate that many TLM communities seem to have preserved not only the traditional mass, but the abuses or at any rate inadequate practices that had accumulated around it (dead silent or unintelligibly mumbled or whispered, a few treacly hymns to cover up the lack of chant, etc.).

I think in fact that one of the reasons that the Tridentine Rite could not be revived is because many traditionalist commmunities have perpetuated some of the very things that were cited as justification for the VatII changes and the Novus Ordo. If the rite were generally restored without some very strict guidelines from the Vatican, there would be serious conflicts with some of these communities, which see any change (including the legitimate ones in process at the time of VatII) as a threat. And I'm not sure the Vatican wants to get into that particular battle.

That said, there was a sort of intermediary form that existed very briefly before the NO was imposed. It was really not much more than a translation into the vernacular of the Tridentine Rite mass, IIRC. Perhaps if they resumed from that point, although putting a few things back into Latin for the sake of unity, some progress could be made.


30 posted on 07/07/2006 6:33:24 AM PDT by livius
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