Posted on 04/27/2006 3:03:34 PM PDT by restornu
The Book of Mormon is often dismissed as gibberish by those who have never taken the trouble to read it. In fact, its very existence poses a serious puzzle if it is not what it claims to be - an ancient record. Below is the Book of Mormon Challenge, an assignment that Professor Hugh Nibley at BYU sometimes gave to students in a required class on the Book of Mormon. The following text is taken from the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.8, Ch.11, Pg.221 - Pg.222:
Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon, it should not be too much to ask you to hand in by the end of the semester (which will give you more time than he had) a paper of, say, five to six hundred pages in length. Call it a sacred book if you will, and give it the form of a history. Tell of a community of wandering Jews in ancient times; have all sorts of characters in your story, and involve them in all sorts of public and private vicissitudes; give them names--hundreds of them--pretending that they are real Hebrew and Egyptian names of circa 600 b.c.; be lavish with cultural and technical details--manners and customs, arts and industries, political and religious institutions, rites, and traditions, include long and complicated military and economic histories; have your narrative cover a thousand years without any large gaps; keep a number of interrelated local histories going at once; feel free to introduce religious controversy and philosophical discussion, but always in a plausible setting; observe the appropriate literary conventions and explain the derivation and transmission of your varied historical materials.
Above all, do not ever contradict yourself! For now we come to the really hard part of this little assignment. You and I know that you are making this all up--we have our little joke--but just the same you are going to be required to have your paper published when you finish it, not as fiction or romance, but as a true history! After you have handed it in you may make no changes in it (in this class we always use the first edition of the Book of Mormon); what is more, you are to invite any and all scholars to read and criticize your work freely, explaining to them that it is a sacred book on a par with the Bible. If they seem over-skeptical, you might tell them that you translated the book from original records by the aid of the Urim and Thummim--they will love that! Further to allay their misgivings, you might tell them that the original manuscript was on golden plates, and that you got the plates from an angel. Now go to work and good luck!
To date no student has carried out this assignment, which, of course, was not meant seriously. But why not? If anybody could write the Book of Mormon, as we have been so often assured, it is high time that somebody, some devoted and learned minister of the gospel, let us say, performed the invaluable public service of showing the world that it can be done." - Hugh Nibley
Structure and Complexity of the Book of Mormon First Nephi gives us first a clear and vivid look at the world of Lehi, a citizen of Jerusalem but much at home in the general world of the New East of 600 B.C. Then it takes us to the desert, where Lehi and his family wander for eight years, doing all the things that wandering families in the desert should do. The manner of their crossing the ocean is described, as is the first settlement and hard pioneer life in the New World dealt with.... The book of Mosiah describes a coronation rite in all its details and presents extensive religious and political histories mixed in with a complicated background of exploration and colonization. The book of Alma is marked by long eschatological discourses and a remarkably full and circumstantial military history. The main theme of the book of Helaman is the undermining of society by moral decay and criminal conspiracy; the powerful essay on crime is carried into the next book, where the ultimate dissolution of the Nephite government is described.
Then comes the account of the great storm and earthquakes, in which the writer, ignoring a splendid opportunity for exaggeration, has as accurately depicted the typical behavior of the elements on such occasions as if he were copying out of a modern textbook on seismology.... [Soon] after the catastrophe, Jesus Christ appeared to the most pious sectaries who had gathered at the temple.
...Can anyone now imagine the terrifying prospect of confronting the Christian world of 1830 with the very words of Christ? ...
But the boldness of the thing is matched by the directness and nobility with which the preaching of the Savior and the organization of the church are described. After this comes a happy history and then the usual signs of decline and demoralization. The death-struggle of the Nephite civilization is described with due attention to all the complex factors that make up an exceedingly complicated but perfectly consistent picture of decline and fall. Only one who attempts to make a full outline of Book of Mormon history can begin to appreciate its immense complexity; and never once does the author get lost (as the student repeatedly does, picking his way out of one maze after another only with the greatest effort), and never once does he contradict himself. We should be glad to learn of any other like performance in the history of literature. - Hugh Nibley, Collected Works Vol. 8
The four types of biblical experts There are four kinds of biblical experts: At the very top are the professionals who have been doing biblical research all their adult lives. They are usually professors in leading universities in various fields that are related to the Bible such as archaeologists, historians, paleographers, professors of the Bible, and professors of Near Eastern languages and literature.
These people are the most credible of all biblical experts and do not let religious views get in the way of the truth. This is why a lot of them consider themselves to be nonbelievers in the modern Christian and Jewish faiths. Their reputation and standing in the academic community is very important to them. This causes them to be cautious and not rashly declare statements upon any subject without presenting verifiable proof for their claims. It is to them that encyclopedias, journals and universities go to for information. Their community is very small, but extremely influential in the secular world. One distinctive feature of this group is the difficulty outsiders face when reading their writings which causes them to be a fairly closed society.
The second group of biblical experts are those who have legitimate degrees and may have initially been in the first group but were spurned by the first group for being unreliable because they disregard demonstrable proof simply because their religious convictions teach otherwise. For them, their religion's teaching overrides real biblical research. Very few of them can be considered Fundamentalists.
The third group of biblical experts are the "biblical experts." These people disregard the works and conclusions of the first group, and view the second group as their mentors. Nearly all anti-Mormons who produce anti-Mormon paraphernalia fall into this group. Their views are purely theological and display ignorance of legitimate biblical studies. Their arguments are non-rational and are frequently sensational hype and empty rhetoric. These people are very vocal and constantly parade their "expertise" upon the unknowing masses by giving seminars in various churches and religious schools. Nearly all of them are Fundamentalists.
The fourth group of "biblical experts" are those who have never read the Bible completely and do not even know the history and contents of the Bible. They are completely reliant upon materials produced by the third group and may have five verses in the Bible memorized to quote at people they encounter (in nearly every instance John 3:16 and John 14:6 are included in these five verses) to give the impression they are experts in the Bible. They usually need the Table of Contents to find various biblical books and are extremely vocal in their condemnation of Mormonism. They personify the wise adage:
The less knowledge a man has, the more vocal he is about his expertise.
They read an anti-Mormon book and suddenly they're experts on Mormonism:
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
The remainder of Christians are those who believe in the Bible but never read it. The Bible is a very complex book for most Christians and seems to possess a power that intimidates them. This is why a normal Christian is impressed whenever he or she encounters an individual who can quote scripture. It is this ignorance of the Bible that causes some to proclaim themselves "biblical experts."
I am not aware of anyone in the first group of biblical experts who are anti-Mormon. If anything, real biblical scholars who know Mormon theology have a profound sense of admiration for it and are usually astonished that so many facets of Mormonism reflect authentic biblical teachings.
They are frequently puzzled at how Joseph Smith could find out the real biblical teaching since modern Judaism and Christianity abandoned them thousands of years ago. Uniquely Mormon doctrines such as the anthropomorphic nature of God, the divine nature and deification potential of man, the plurality of deities, the divine sanction of polygamy, the fallacy of sola scriptura, the superiority of the charismatic leaders over the ecclesiastical leaders and their importance, the inconsequence of Original Sin because of the Atonement of Christ, the importance of contemporary revelation, and so forth are all original Jewish and Christian thought before they were abandoned mainly due to Greek philosophical influence.
Mormonism to these scholars is the only faith that preserves the characteristics of the early chosen people. This doesn’t mean these scholars believe Mormonism is the true religion, since their studies are on an intellectual level instead of a spiritual one.
On the other hand, the leaders of the anti-Mormon movement are nearly all in the third category with a couple in the second. Real biblical experts (who aren’t Mormon) and are in the first category normally refer to the “biblical experts” in the third group as the “know-nothings” or the “Fundamentalist know-nothings.” These terms aren’t completely derogatory, but are accurate descriptions of the knowledge of the “biblical experts” in the third group. Ed Watson - Mormonism: Faith of the 21st Century
One question that I've never seen the answer to...
If a male LDS marries a female LDS who is also the faithful daughter of an LDS, who gets her on his planet: daddy god or hubby god?
If daddy god, then the hubby god loses his eternal wife.
If hubby god, then the daddy god isn't together with his family.
Either way, the "eternal family" must be broken up. I'm confused.
I'll answer the way I understand it. It will be all one big, happy, sealed, eternal family, where everyone is brother, sister, husband, wife, child, parent etc....one great amorphous blob (as restornu refers to our belief in the Trinity) ; )
Sounds like paganism to me.
***
Here is an excerpt that was posted on another thread by another LDS FR
Gen1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness....
John 20: 17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Mat 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
John 14:28
...I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. [Christ speaking]
John 10: 33-36
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them,
Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Mormons accept the divinity of Christ, that he is the Son of God, he died for our sins and is our Savior and we strive to follow him as best we know how. That makes us Christian.
The fact that we reject some aspects of the orthodox view of Christianity that was formulated durring the dark ages only makes us unorthodox Christians.
JOINT HEIRS
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Pray tell: how many levels of existence must one pass through to achieve godhood?
If there are multiple levels, if I do enough good on level 3 but mess up level 4, do I have to go back to level 3 again?
Please explain or provide a reference that will explain the whole afterlife (afterlives?) progression as you understand it.
John 10: 34-36 -- Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken, say ye of him, whom the Father hath asanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Christ quotes, Ps. 82: 6, confirms it is scripture, and states that the gods refered to are those 'unto whom the word of God came' (ie: Isreal). He then used those fact to undermine the validity of the accusations made against him. If it was not reffering to men as gods it would have been a very weak case he was making.
Yes, Isreal judged unjustly and did all the other things that cause the Psalmist to plead for the just judgements of God. No I don't aspire to that kind of behaviour (there will be consequences as you point out), but if the scriptures can call them gods when they act like that, why say that that we blaspheme for what we teach?
Your view of Mormonism is flawed
Mosiah 2
20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.
22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments;
----
You might find reading the whole chapter useful. http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/2
We don't 'earn' what God give us, we are constantly in debt to God no matter how much he blesses us for whatever good we do.
There is no series of lives, we don't teach reincarnation. As for what comes after this life, we don't have a lot of detail, but there is an overview at http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=144 that should answer your last question.
Brainwashing
brainwashing / n. 1: a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas 2: persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship. (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary)
When someone speaks of religious brainwashing, we might think of a victim forcibly held in a room while his old belief system is systematically destroyed, which is then replaced by a new, radical belief structure. However, this method has not proven to be especially effective in the last decade or so by cults, and has been largely replaced by more subtle forms of mind control.
There are similarities between mind control and other forms of persuasion, such as is found in advertising and modern sales techniques. Both the religious cult and, let's say, a doortodoor salesman are offering a product (the religion offers God's approval and a future reward). Both exert persuasion to "try it out", as time is supposedly short or limited; soon they won't be able to choose. It is emphasized that they must make a decision. High pressure tactics are used, with an attempt to overwhelm their listener with positive statements regarding their product or organization. This is done in an attempt to rush the decision before all angles can be considered, or before someone can come along who can effectively challenge the product or organization.
The differences, however, are important. A salesman is out to make a buck and is usually not interested in the person he is speaking to except to make a sale. If, after his or her presentation, the customer is not interested, the salesman goes on his way. A cultist, on the other hand, will usually be interested in the person for more than just their money, and the recruiters are quite sincere in showing affection towards the potential recruit. For the most part, the recruiter STRONGLY BELIEVES deep down that what he has to offer is the best thing going, and he may go to great lengths to convert the person. Sincerity comes through accepting their program as "God's program", thereby adding an element of fear and mystery to it; fear that if you don't join, you will meet the wrath of God, and mysterious in that it is for a select few who meet the qualifications.
Additionally, the religious cult will seek to establish themselves as the sole channel to God, and will warn you that the devil is very real, and he is out to deceive you by means of all the other religions. Their particular approach is slanted to prejudice you against other beliefs before you can investigate them. You learn to fear those who do not agree with you, and will run from them or avoid a confrontation with them. Because religious cults are seen as "extreme" in their methods and behavior, they are often maligned by others, and the recruiter capitalizes on this by claiming he is being persecuted for his faith. So from the start, the recruit develops "tunnel vision" when it comes to investigating all the facts. He is led to believe that the recruiter can be trusted to possess the truth, but the rest of the world cannot.
This can be referred to as "intellectual myopia." Many will have dropped out of the program once they recognize how they are being programmed by the recruiter, but a few will remain. They are enticed by what is offered, and cross the barrier of their own common sense to get more involved. They desire to live in the imaginary world of the cult. As Deborah Davis, a former member of the Children of God says,
When a cult recruit crosses the invisible barrier in his mindwhen he enters the world of the cult and its doctrine at some point during his flirtatious sampling of the culthe is tripping the switch of his voluntary suspension of disbelief. Brainwashing or mind control then occurs naturally, sometimes effortlessly. In many cases the new cult member will struggle hard to brainwash himself. He must do this in order to balance the guilt he feels. When doubts rush in like a flood, he tells himself, "I am following the truth. The rest of the world may be going to hell, but I am following the truth!"
Other brothers and sisters are there to encourage the new recruit. He either accepts their help and counsel, or he rejects it. If he rejects it, he doesn't stay around long. If he receives their help, he goes deeper into the cultic doctrine. He will sell flowers, chant, memorize . . . whatever it takes, to the utmost of his ability to prove to himself and others that he is right. The brainwashing that occurs in the cults is the finest, purest and most effective around. (The Children of God, Zondervan, 1984, p.172)
High pressure techniques almost always utilize a measure of deceit; often in the form of halftruths and redefinition of terms. Popular phrases such as "bornagain," "Christian," "heaven," and "saved" are redefined in new terms, giving outward acceptability to the group's beliefs. Select truthful phrases or even quotations from the Bible are taken out of context to bolster their belief structure. A new recruit is not told the full range of beliefs of the group for fear that he will bail out, so the more socially acceptable beliefs are taught to him first. This is not seen as deception by the recruiter, but merely as a gentle conditioning for what lies ahead. Deborah Davis comments on studies done by Richard Delgado in Stoner and Parke's All God's Children (p.248):
However, from the cult's perspective this deceit is merely part of the "training process" of a new convert. The mature cult member doesn't feel he is being the least bit deceptive. He is simply presenting truth in doses suitable for a "babe", or new member. The salvation of the new convert is at stake, and the disciple has a divine responsibility to assist the convert into the cult 100 percent. Delgado acknowledges the fact that the convert does "consent to each step" of the conversion processthat is, there is a voluntary choice. But the wrongdoing, as Delgado see it, is that the cults misrepresent themselves; they don't honestly display themselves for what they truly are. The Children of God, p. 177.
By this gradual process of learning a new "language," gaining new friends and rejecting old ones, adopting new behavior, developing intellectual myopia and actually learning how to gradually "condition" others himself, the new recruit becomes a fully brainwashed member of the cult. Within a period as short as a few months, he can adopt a radically different way of thinking as a result of this process, and his personality may even appear unrecognizable by old friends.
How does this process differ from Christian evangelism?
A Christian is generally up front in presenting the message of Christ's death and resurrection to the listener. He may give the whole sermon from "heaven to hell" in one hour without fear that he may lose a convert, for he knows it is not his work, but God's. The potential convert is encouraged to check the Christian faith out from any angle, historically, logically and experientially. Additionally, salvation is a gift, so there is no "price" to pay; it is not for just a select few. The convert is not dependent upon a particular church or religious group for their salvation. In other words, there are no strings attached.
Why do people start cults?
Few set out to "start a cult," at least intentionally. Rather, they are individuals who feel they have something to offer that no one else has; some special understanding or anointing from God, etc. Their opinion of themselves gets inflated, and they soon allow for no dissention or differences of opinion among their followers. Their growing number of recruits give them a sense of power and affirmation, further corrupting their fallen nature. Gradually they lose any real humility, fully believing they are God's sole spokesman to the world.
Why do these leaders reject orthodox Christianity?
Orthodoxy has been established over a period of 1900 years by Christian leaders and theologians who have battled heresy with sound logic from the Word of God. They recognize that theology is complex. Within orthodoxy, many of the finer points of belief can be debated over and over, leaving differences of opinion, while both sides retain the same basic beliefs. An upandcoming cult leader, however, considers himself superior to the church and its scholars, writing them off as uneducated fools; while nurturing the belief that he is God's spokesman to the world. Often ignoring the work of Greek and Hebrew scholars and seminarians, he sets himself up as the sole interpreter of the Bible.
The doctrinal structure of the new cult must be simple enough for the average person to grasp. If it were to be complex, dissention might easily arise within the group over finer points of doctrine, destroying the tight control that is so desired. The simplicity of the system works towards greater unity of thoughtthe simpler the theology, the easier it is to control the ranks. The seemingly simple logic will also help in the recruiting process, as the recruit wants simple answers to his and the world's problems. The cult will provide these answers. The price of simplicity is lack of depth, however, and their incomplete logic can be refuted by mature Christians who study the Bible.
The identity of Christ is a barrier to the cult leader. He must either reduce the authority of Christ (elevating himself), or claim equality with Christ. This can be done by (1) claiming he himself is the returned or reincarnated Messiah, or (2) demoting Jesus to a fellow spiritual leader or a created being.
THERAPY FOR THE EXCULT MEMBER
The most important factor in therapy for the cultist or excultist is prayer. Pray for wisdom, for a receptive heart, and for the Holy Spirit to be present. Unlike street corner evangelism, it is not always wise to try and convert the victim of a cult to the Christian faith on the spot. If they have a desire to know God as he really is, your prayers will help bring them around to the point where they will seek help. If they are receptive right away, the gospel of Jesus Christ can be presented, and they may ask Christ into their life on the first encounter.
One of the best remedies is natural human love and concern; being a friend to the victim. Coming out of a cult is a very emotionally draining experience, and one has need of close friends with which to talk. A whole host of negative emotions including fear, bitterness, despair, anger, sadness, loneliness, dejection and depression may have to be singled out and discussed with mature Christians. Prayer is also very important.
Don't expect them to see Christianity objectively; they have been taught that the churches are wrong, or even of the devil. They will see more than anything from your example that Christianity is real and it works.
Not all problems can be dealt with by counseling. The victim's personal sins and their alienation from God will cause them trouble, long after they are out of the cult, unless moral issues are addressed. Deborah Davis makes the point well:
I believe one reason why many psychologists and counselors meet only partial success in helping cult victims back to normalcy is that they are not separating the two guilt factors. There is guilt born of personal failure, the result of human pride. For example, an excult victim will experience guilt because he has failed the cult, failed his prophet, and become a Judas, a backslider. The "guilt trip" placed on cult members by cult doctrine produce a form of human guilt, what I would term "unrighteous guilt". This kind of guilt can be singled out and eliminated in counseling.
But there is another form of guilt, proceeding from a man's conscience. This is the guilt of sin, what I call "righteous guilt." It cannot be counseled away. To eliminate this kind of guilt a man must seek and find divine forgiveness. The guilt of sin is a spiritual matter. NonChristian psychiatrists, psychologists, and counselors do not recognize the reality of sin or the guilt that accompanies it. Consequently they lump all guilt into one category and view it as "unrighteous guilt." They talk of "false guilt."
If these two guilt factors are unknowingly lumped together and justified, the victim will continue to feel the pain of guilt, the result of sin. He will remain fragmented and alienated. Counselors are baffled as to why so many excult victims are not healed and continue to suffer severe depression, anxiety, and emotional trauma. They don't understand why they cannot seem to "break away" from their experience in the cult. The reason is that they are still carrying the guilt of sin. (ibid., p.180, 181)
Mrs. Davis offers advice on helping the cult victim readjust:
For millions of cult members, brainwashing is a reality. It is a deadly snare that blinds them from the truth they so desperately need to see. To step through the twilight zone of mind manipulation into the light of reality, rediscovering the truth about life and about self, is often a slow and painful process. It takes time, perhaps years.
The friends and relatives of excult victims should remember three things: Be compassionate, be patient, be sensitive. It is a difficult thing to admit mistakes, to face sins. This process reawakens all the deepseated guilt. It must be a voluntary experience. We cannot force any to examine themselves. They must do it as the grace of God is revealed in their lives. They need understanding; they need our love. They must accept their responsibility by their own choice. But when they do, they will experience a spiritual awakening. And it is most exciting.
Sin lies at the root of cultic brainwashing. To explain away sin and guilt through the dynamics of mind control is an attack against Jesus as the Savior. Guilt, the result of sin, cannot be removed psychologically. It is Christ who removes the weight of guilt. It is Christ who died and rose from the dead for our sins. . . . True mental health and peace of mind lie in the remission of sin, and that gift is open to every individual. (ibid., p. 181182)
An understanding of the Biblical view of sin and man's fallen nature is the greatest asset in aiding a person out of the cults. Bringing that individual to maturity in Christ is the goal of our therapy, and the end result is rewarding both to the patient and the Christian counselor.
Refuting Jehovah's Witnesses .....http://www.meta-religion.com/New_religious_groups/Articles/Criticism/brainwashing.htm
I had to go on an emergency Business trip, and while there my computer did something stupid. The result of which is I don't know which questions I have answered, and which I did not. This being the last question in my list on FR I am starting here. as I will undoubtedly miss something, please re ask if I do not answer your questions.
Delphiuser
Hi welcome back I think every one jump ship!:) LOL
>>I only ask that individuals be given adequate information in order to make an informed decision.
I solemly swear to give any investigator I meet with “adequate information” so they can make “an informed decision”
Happy?
I didn’t thin you would be, Sigh, I try and I tray… Mumble, mumble Sniff.
You just can’t please everyone… /Humor
>>Google the phrase "lying for the lord," and see how many of the responses point to the Mormons
Did it, and found 361 hits so I thought, lord while not exclusively Mormon, is not exactly standard Christian phraseology, so I thought I try a few of my own.
Try Googling for "lying for Christ" (33) or "lying for Jesus" (602) or "lying for God" (313) Mostly Christian sites, complaining about other Christians from the informal un scientific perusal I gave the results.
Here I thought we had a monopoly of a sort on disaffected members not just going away. Another false premise bites the dust. I was wrong; other churches seem to have that problem too.
>>I know you believe that there is one God that has authority over YOU. Is that saying
>>that other gods have authority over someone else?
Yes, creators have dominion, or authority over their creations.
>>My memory recalls that Mormons believe that your/our God only rules over
>>THIS area of the galaxy and that there probably are other gods who rule elsewhere.
>>Maybe I'm phrasing this wrong but that's the best I can do!
If by this area, you mean us, and all of his creations, you are correct. There are other god’s who rule over their creations, but we have no idea if they are even in the same dimension as us (infinity is such a big place…)
>>Do you believe in two or three or many "gods," or in one God who is one divine nature in three divine persons?
I must confess though I have a high IQ, I cannot understand the question, are you asking if God is one in heart might mind and strength? Yes one in purpose, yes! One in personage, no.
I believe in a “Godhead” made up of there personages who together, or separately can be called God. I believe that to have seen God the Father, or Jesus Christ is to have seen both of them for Jesus Christ is the express image of the Father.
>>And if you answer that you believe in two or three or many "gods," how many of those
>>"gods" are really exalted men who started out as humans and achieved "godhood"?
As man is God once was, as God is man can become. All Gods were once men, all men can become gods because we are the children of a god, and unless we grow up twisted, that will be our “Adult” state.
Think of it this way, Jesus Christ is supposed to be an example for us, he is supposed to be a type for us.
In the old testament Jesus Christ, before birth was a spirit in that he was “Pre Mortal” this Pre mortal Christ exemplifies our pre mortal state where as spirits we dwelled with God (which is why Jesus Christ could know us before he formed us in the belly, before Abraham, I am, and why the disciples clearly understanding this doctrine asked Jesus who sinned that this man was born blind him, or his parents?)
By being born, Jesus typified the perfect human life in complete obedience to God the Father’s will.
In death, resurrection, and exaltation, Jesus Christ showed the path we can follow if we will just believe on his name and keep his commandments. Thus becoming Gods as he is now.
Whether or not you believe it, you got to admit it’s a beautiful way to look at it.
>>No definite article, until DelphiUser neatly added it.
Actually, Word which is how I get any regularity in my English at all, added it.
If I could show one scripture that said a man can become a god? How about two? How many would it take?
Here are a couple I could find quickly.
Gen 3:22 ( http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/3/22#22 )
John 1:12 (http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/12#12 )
>>There are no other Gods besides YVWH, the God of Israel.
The bible speaks of Many gods, but we are commanded to have no other gods before him. Exodus 20: 3 (http://scriptures.lds.org/ex/20/3#3 ) It’s in the ten commandments.
>>If you learn a little philosophy, you'll discover that the definition of "divinity"
>>precludes the idea of more than one god just as much as it precludes the idea of a man
>>turning into a god. Google on St. Thomas Aquinas proof of the existence of God, and
>>the concept of necessary and contingent existence.
My philosophy instructor taught me that when it’s a matter of opinion, I am always right. /Humor
Divinity: (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=divinity )
1. The state or quality of being divine.
2.
a. Divinity The godhead; God. Used with the.
b. A deity, such as a god or goddess.
3. Godlike character.
4. Theology.
5. A soft white candy, usually containing nuts.
I do not think we are talking about the candy here, every thing else applies.
Lying for God - 312 records, 37 reference Mormon or 12%
Lying for Jesus - 602 records 69 reference Mormons or 11.5%
Lying for the Lord - 361 records 271 reference Mormons or 75%
With Mormons comprising 2% of the population, this is roughly 5.5%(Lying for Jesus) to 37.5 (Lying for the Lord) times higher than we should expect.
"Lying for Jesus!"
colorcountry also X-Mormon, uses as her source Dr. D. Michael Quinn, who is also X-Mormon, same sex, writers, & Co-horts
In death, resurrection, and exaltation, Jesus Christ showed the path we can follow if we will just believe on his name and keep his commandments. Thus becoming Gods as he is now.
Whether or not you believe it, you got to admit it’s a beautiful way to look at it.
It might be ... but God disavowed the possibility of such a plan as He spoke through the prophet Isaiah ...Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Yes and this God you are talking about is Jesus Christ the Only begotten of the Heavenly Father!
Therefore there will be none formed after him because Jesus was the only begotten one who was formed!
****
Isa.51
(This is the Son of God!) 11 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;
13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?
14 The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail.
15 But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name.
16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
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Abraham3
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.
21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
(was like unto God, Jesus the Son) 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
***
Man will always be lesser than the Godhead when those worthy souls receive their inheiritance and are joint heirs!
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Mat 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
John 14:28 ...I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. [Christ speaking]
John 10: 33-36
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10
John 10: 33-36 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Scripture, through Isaiah, clearly says that there was no God formed before Him, ... and that there shall be no God formed after Him.
I think that this very clearly shows that the one God is a unique being ... there is none like Him ... there has never been ... there never will be.
As to what you wish to call everyone else (i.e. the created class), ... feel free ...
Gen. 2
7 And the LORD God FORMED man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.
8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden;
and there he put the man whom he had FORMED
***
... before ME there was NO God FORMED, Isaiah 43:10
did HE NOT say before ME there was NO God FORMED,
He said NO God FORMED Before ME NOR After ME!
(this is the Savior, Redeemer, the only begotten)neither shall there be After me. (Because He is the Only Begotten!)
****
Isa.51
(This is the Son of God!)
11 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return,
and come with singing unto Zion;
and everlasting joy shall be upon their head:
they shall obtain gladness and joy;
and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you:
who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die,
and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;
13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker,
that hath stretched forth the heavens,
and laid the foundations of the earth;
and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor,
as if he were ready to destroy?
and where is the fury of the oppressor?
14 The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed,
and that he should not die in the pit,
nor that his bread should fail.
15 But I am the LORD thy God,
that divided the sea, whose waves roared:
The LORD of hosts is his name.
16 And I have put my words in thy mouth,
and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand,
that I may plant the heavens,
and lay the foundations of the earth,
and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
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