The Book of Mormon Challenge

Joseph Smith America Prophet ^ | 2006

[Campion]

I believe I simply pointed out that the orthodox teaching of the Church is that The Father and the Son are distinct Persons, but are both the One Eternal God, along with the Holy Spirit.

The Nicene Creed disagrees with you.

I don't know why you think the Nicene Creed disagrees with the proposition that the Father and Son (and the Holy Spirit) are distinct persons, but what Quester said is perfectly correct. If you're trying to say that the Nicene Creed disagrees with orthodox Trinitarianism, then you aren't understanding the creed the way Trinitarians do; if you're trying to say that orthodox Trinitarianism doesn't teach what Quester said it does, you're simply mistaken.

Another ancient (4th Century) creed, the Athanasian, puts it perhaps more clearly:

And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal ... So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords.

[restornu]

Your decorum is much appreciated.

Few years back I had a discussion with someone who is Eastern Orthodox that was different from the Tradition Trinity!

I think the term was Filioque http://www.catholic.com/library/Filioque.asp

To the LDS we believe that there are three serperate personage Father & Son and the Holy Ghost but all of one mind!

[restornu]

Filioque Controversy
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/filioque.htm

[DelphiUser]

>>Delphi, you are funny. You use this verse to say that the only way that someone can
>>say the words, "Jesus is Lord" is through the Holy Ghost. Mormon's believe that the
>>only way to get the gift of the Holy Ghost is through the "laying on of hands by one
>>with proper authority." You use this same logic to say that only members of the
>>Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can have the gift of the Holy Ghost.....
>>All others, Catholic, Protestants, do not have the authority to have this gift. So how
>>do they profess that Christ is Lord?

Easy, They also testify by the power of the Holy Ghost. (I have never denyed that, nor does the Church)

Mormons do not say what you think we say.

The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

All men can be moved upon by the spirit, that is commonly how they become members (Big Big Grin)

>> I think teaching of another Christ of a different Christ

We teach of Jesus Christ, Born of Mary, the only begotten of the father, you saying we don’t won’t change that. Your argument is tired; you keep repeating the same statements about what we believe without understanding the refutation of your postulates. Do you have anything new?

>>You can recognize false doctrine by knowing the word of GOD.

And it’s a good thing I do.

>>You must validate for yourself every doctrine you hear with the word of GOD (Bible).

Um, Praying about it is not an option then? OK, CC does not believe in prayer as a valid way of knowing anything, explains a lot. (I reserve the right to come back to this later)

>> Otherwise the antichrist will lead you into a false belief.
>>You will think you are following Christ but you will be a follower of the Antichrist.

I see, and there is no possibility that my witnesses of truth are correct because … You say so. So I am to take the word of an Internet poster over a personal witness from God?

BTW the James 2 quote, read the whole thing it is about people being justified by WORKS.

Try this on for size Gospel of John 17: 21 & 22 (the great intercessory prayer) Jesus draws a simile on his and God’s oneness.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

“Even as we are one” We know he did not expect the apostles to join into one super apostle but a oneness of spirit, a oneness of purpose, a oneness of heart. This was his meaning, him who has ears to hear, let him hear.

There is support for what we teach in the Bible The very fact that we are having this discussion is proof that the gospel as presented in the Bible is “Debatable” because we are currently debating it. This proves the need for more scripture to add to the testimony so that the Gospel will be preached in its fullness, a fullness that you deny.

As we were told in General Conference in April, there are those who are wise… and those who are other-wise.

[DelphiUser]

>>Fortunately it doesn't refute a thing ... because it was never a part of the scriptures.
>>
>>It was just another writing in the collection of writings which were generated during
>>the days of the early church. Some of these writings were inspired by God ... and some
>>of them weren't.

Why wasn’t it included in the Bible if all the authors of the time agreed as you said? That was my point, you missed it. As you will no doubt, miss this plainly stated refutation of the Compilation of the Bible.

>>God did ... working through the church.

A church that Paul said was already falling away from the teachings…

The Bible was compiled hundreds of years after Christ and writers of the day complained that important books were lost (Esibius sp?). The Great grandson of St John the Apostle (Hippolytus) wrote books refuting some of the heresies he saw entering the church, His works were mostly lost due to the Heresies winning! The Bible as it is assembled, was assembled by men who took the power of the church to add to their power base. Go and read up on Constantine and the Bible at the Caholic encyclopedia site.

You might embarrass yourself by posting about the “Happy homogonous Bible compilation” it was a bloody battle and it was one the truth lost.

The Life of Constantine (http://www.newadvent.org/Fathers/2502.htm ) for starters, and remember it was written by a scribe who could be killed if Constantine didn’t like it

Continue to Search this valuable resource, and you will see competing translations, Greek was used until 250 AD or so, then Latin stated to come into vogue, the first Bible was in Latin, biblia means a collection of books in Latin. It was a long time before it was considered the “Authoritative” source and was called “The Bible”. Your neat and orderly version of the compiling of the bible just never happened.

>> Is it your opinion that all of the writings which appeared during the days of the early
>>church ... should have been declared scripture?

No, but destroying Books is never a good idea.

>>Do you think that all of the Old Testament Jewish writings ...
>>were compiled into the Old Testament canon ?

No, but the Torah which was considered scripture by Christ was.

>> Do you believe that the LDS should give as much credence to the Gospel of Judas ...
>>as you give to your already declared scriptures ?

No, but it sure makes for interesting reading, I’m waiting for the prophet to give us his opinion, until then, it’s just interesting.

>> Why is it that you believe that the Nicean Creed disagrees with me ?

Because what it says and what you say are not the same.

>> I have been going to God in prayer for some 40 years now ...
>>and He has yet to even hint to me ... that Book of Mormon is from Him.

Did you ask? Did you ask in Faith? How long did you do this?

>> not another soul on earth ever read those plates.

Not another soul saw the Burning bush, nobody saw god call Jonah and nobody saw Abraham wrestle with an angel. I’ve got tons more

Most of the prophets in the Bible will not meet the standards you set for Joseph Smith, they must be hucksters too.

>> You all have only Joseph's word as to what they said.

No, I have God’s word, but you won’t accept my testimony that I have received a witness from him. Your refusal to accept testimony does not mean it did not happen nor does it mean I am deceived. Satan does not testify of Christ, nor does he teach men to call on Christ’s name.

>> The Spirit simply hasn't led us to embrace the Book of Mormon.

Well, it led me to. Why not try again? You might learn something, what have you got to lose anyway? No answer, no harm, answer you learned some thing important.

Millions of Mormons can’t be wrong. (Grin)

[DelphiUser]

On this very thread, I have been told that I am not a Christian because I believe God and Christ are separate beings who share the title of God. I went and read the Creed with this thought in mind, it looked to me like they said the Christ was the same personage as the father. But it is such flowery language I could be wrong.

If I am wrong about the creed, why are “Christians” telling me that I believe in a pagan god because I believe they are separate, and not the same personage?

On post #571 ColorCountry spent a lot of time telling me God is one not two or three personages, care to straighten CC out for me?

[restornu]

If I learn any thing when I read good I get a good feelings, when I read things from the devil like trying to shake ones faith, or underminding the Book of Mormon, or writting thing to create doubt...

I get a very strong forbodden feeling, some can confuse and think it is about the Book of Mormon, but it really the person is misunderstanding, for it is the kind of answer one get from the opposition a forbodden scray feeling!

Because when one goes back and read the scripture peace returns to their mind!

I use to get a forbodden feeling when I read the Walter Martin stuff about the Book of Mormon or things like it, but the feeling went away when I read the Book of Mormon!

This is a very clear lesson on discernment this is when I was a member for less than 6 months, it is a lesson I never forgot!

Than another time I read in one of our lesson what the fruits of the spirit of the Holy Ghost is an also what the what the opposition posses and it can not imatate good it can only create fear.

I would love to come across that lesson again I never forgot the jest of it!

Read the Book of Mormon feel peace and Good it is the same feeling I get whenever I read the word of God

Read the anti version I get a forbodden and scray feeling!

Only things of the Lord can give peace!

[bonfire]

I thought that Mormons believed that there ARE other gods in other universe's?

[restornu]

I thought that Mormons believed that there ARE other gods in other universe's?

Bonfire many times have you read or asked or seen this question repeated in the pass 5 years?

Seems to me there is a pattern to the way the Lord works as witness by the universe

Gen. 1 1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

etc.

If we were to think the digest version of Moses 1st five books had all the knowledge that God spoke it would not be an abridgement of his Word!

We know earth is not the first planet nor the last planet that the Lord had created nor does he say this is the only planet that has people on it!

This is just common since knowledge!

[bonfire]

So there ARE god's that RULE over other universe's? God's that are equal to or more powerful?

[colorcountry]

You must validate for yourself every doctrine you hear with the word of GOD (Bible).

Um, Praying about it is not an option then? OK, CC does not believe in prayer as a valid way of knowing anything, explains a lot....

You answered a question you directed to me. Delphi, read the web. There are almost as many "apostate" Mormons as those in good standing. I prayed for 45 years that I would receive the answer to my prayers, that the Church was true. Even after I became inactive, even when I became athiestic, I prayed. I wanted to believe it was true.

What happens to cause good Mormons like me to begin to doubt? One writer called it the "double bind" of Mormonism. The church promises happiness, joy, salvation, blessings, and a good life as a good person. Whether the church actually promises these things, members understand that living the gospel 100% will bring them close. When the Mormon does everything the church asks him to do, work, pray, study, tithe, go to meetings, do genealogy, do temple work, fulfill callings, etc., etc., etc., and somehow he does not feel that it's working the way it should, the response he gets from the church is that he isn't really doing it right, or often enough, or faithfully enough. The solution suggested to him is to study MORE, pray MORE, read MORE scriptures.

The double bind is that the church places the blame for not fulfilling its part of the bargain on the member. It's the member's fault. This can be psychologically devastating, especially to someone who is really devout, who is really trying, and who really does not see what he is doing wrong or how he is not living the gospel as completely as he can. It destroys a person's self-esteem, puts tremendous guilt on him, and he sees no way to solve his problem.

I have found the sweet joy of the Savior, who gave his life precisely because of me (and you), because I cannot live perfectly. I pray to him now,because he died for me. I pray to worship Him, I pray many times a day just to talk to Him, I have a relationship with Him. No longer do I beg and plead for Him to answer my heartfelt prayer that "the Church (LDS) is true." He answered me many years ago, I didn't listen to Him until I accepted his sacrifice on the cross for my sin. His answer was and always had been "NO."

I went to several bisops about my unbelief, the bishops advice was to pray more, or read the scriptures more, or "examine yourself and see if there aren't some areas of the Gospel where you are not keeping the commandments," i.e., "you would not be having this problem if you were living the gospel." I knew however that I had been as faithful as humanly possible. I came to believe God didn't love me, I thought He had turned his back to me, then quite naturally I began to doubt that this advice is from God, that God is inspiring this advice. This is the way God worked to answer my prayers. He showed me that it is Him and Him alone I should follow. Not Joseph Smith, not Harold B. Lee, or Gordon B. Hinckly, not the Stake President, or the Bishop. The answer to my prayers was that I should never defer my relationship to Him to the current "patriarch" of my family. God had always spoken to me, I had refused to listen because all these supposed "men of God" stood between me and my Father God.

Thomas Ferguson said (the Mormon authority on Book of Mormon archaeology, who was a secret apostate), "The LDS church is the greatest social club in the world!" But Mormonism, took away my individuality. I became part of the mass known as the Latter-day Saints. I was instructed several times a week about what to think, what to believe, how to behave, what to read, how to dress and how to spend my money. And after doing all that I had been told (as well as any human possible could,) I was told I failed because of me, because I needed a "test."

Your Church fails the test, it fails the Word of God, it fails as a "social experiment in mind control." Millions of ex-mormons, inactive-mormons, born-again Christians like me can't be wrong!

[bonfire]

According to your post, and others here, Mormon's spend alot of time praying that their church is "true".

[restornu]

Do you folks have a hard time answering question that the LDS but always want to go on to another question with the courtesy of answering ours? Bonfire many times have you read or asked or seen this question repeated in the pass 5 years?

[bonfire]

Have you ever answered with a yes or no?

[restornu]

Have you ever answered with a yes or no?

Is it not true many of your questions as well as others are not couched in double entendre?

[bonfire]

Yes or no.

Simple and straight forward.

[restornu]

I really find what you say CC is foreign to me

The Church is a vehicle of the Lord it is NOT the Lord!

When I joined the Church in 1982 it was still in those days where little was said how to handle certain kinds of questions.

Each being had to learn to fly on their own!

I knew the Church was true but I was not getting answers to some hard questions I wanted to know I had to exercise my faith and learn how to fly when it came to testimonial things!

I was at the stage of an embryo in the Chruch at the time, but I did do all of my soul seaching with the Heavenly Father and asking the Holy Spirit edify me in the name of Jesus Christ!

I had already been witness to by the Holy Spirit about the Book of Mormon before I knew any thing else. I knew the taste of the Spriit of the Lord from my childhood when I sang the hymns in mainline churches!

I was knew what it felt to be baptized in the mainstream and also in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
it was the differents between night and day!

I know the feeling I had for serveral weeks afterwards and later on when I read the Kritland Temple and what many witness I too could associate for I had some of those experiences.

I also had the opposition try to shake me when certain literature came my way, but it was a one on one all by self to know if what it said was real or not.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1622778/posts?page=607#607

Again I was tested so with the help the help from the Godhead was able to know the truth for my self!

I gained my own personal testamony by depending on the Lord (GodHead)!

I have a firm foundation

...and I am a work in progress there was, and still is a lot of overhauling going on and the work does get done when I sit still long enough for it.

You seem to think it comes from the Chruch when it really come from you to know the Lord expects you to know him!

You talk about perfect as those it is NOT scripture yet it is mention 56 times in the Bible!

The Lord knows in this kingdom man could never be 100% perfect that is why the Father sent His Son Jesus Christ to redeem us!

You end of the contract was you were to

A of F
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are:
first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ;
second, Repentance; third,
Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins;
fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

and to Keep the Lord Commandments

These things are still in the bible maybe not as clarified as in the Restoration scriptures, but they are there!

If there is NO Meeting of the Minds you have NO Contract, NO Promise!

[A.J.Armitage]

The Great grandson of St John the Apostle (Hippolytus) wrote books refuting some of the heresies he saw entering the church, His works were mostly lost due to the Heresies winning!

1) Hippolytus was not related to John.

2) Refutation of All Heresies

Hippolytus was upset with the bishops of Rome for not being Trinitarian enough.

Satan does not testify of Christ, nor does he teach men to call on Christ’s name.

Acts 16:16-17.

Also Satan was happy enough to have people be Docetists. Remember what John said about them.

[restornu]

I thought that Mormons believed that there ARE other gods in other universe's?

***

Bonfire how many times have you read or asked or seen this question repeated in the pass 5 years?
____________________________________________________________

Have you ever answered with a yes or no?

***

Is it not true many of your questions as well as others are not couched in double entendre?

All I do is answer quetion one after another and when answer there is no acknowledgement just another question!

So let stop here for a moment and answer my question if you be so kind sir?

[DelphiUser]

>>I thought that Mormons believed that there ARE other gods in other universe's?

There are also other Fathers in the World, but you don’t call them Dad. We only have one God. And God is Three personages, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

(http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1 )

>>So there ARE god's that RULE over other universe's? God's that are equal to or more powerful?

No, we belong to God he is the ultimate authority over us.

>>According to your post, and others here, Mormon's spend alot of time praying
>>that their church is "true".

Yes, then we receive a witness and we stop praying, and start acting (it’s that "Works" thig that has been brought up here)

>>Is it not true many of your questions as well as others are not couched in double entendre?

I have never intentionally made a sexually charged comment on a religious thread.

I do joke around though.