So what if I am ungracious!
stop confusing me!
Posted on 04/27/2006 3:03:34 PM PDT by restornu
>>And you could not have been fooled ?
If you pray to God can just anyone answer? If so, how do you know anything? Could you be being fooled? At some point, we all have to say this, this thing, this is real.
>> Healing the sick, raising the dead, stilling the storm, walking on water, calling the fire
>>of God down to consume sacrifice, parting the sea, providing water from a rock,
>>building the ark, etc.
I have personally healed the sick using the priesthood, and it was nothing short of miraculous. I have used the Gift of Tongues to learn Chinese in less than two months. I have cast out unclean sprits by the power of the priesthood. I have not needed to do the other things you list here (Arc building for example is kind of a specialized need.) I have seen others do similar things, to what I have done, I see this requirement of yours as fulfilled, then again, I expect it to be, you expect it not to be.
Ye shall have no witness until after the trial of your faith
Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
If you are asking for a sign, I offer none.
>> And I have not proclaimed myself the self-annointed bearer of the restoration
>>of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You assume he was self anointed, because you don’t believe the other evidences.
>>Joseph Smith did this. Biblically, he should have had a more witness ...
>>to substantiate his claim.
The three witnesses of the book of Mormon ( http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/thrwtnss )
The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses (http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/eghtwtns )
Joseph Smith’s Own Testimony (http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/jsphsmth )
How many witnesses did you say were needed?
Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corr 13: 1 THIS is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
I think he has that many.
Just in case, will my witness do?
>>I've seen his (Joseph Smith's) misses.
Yep, and Jonah, Job, Moses, even Christ Himself had people who saw “Flaws” whether or not they were there. That is what faith is all about. If Christ came to you personally and taught you the gospel, your need for faith would be ended, you would know.
And I have not proclaimed myself the self-annointed bearer of the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You assume he was self anointed, because you don’t believe the other evidences.
What evidences are those ?
And, for heavens sake, don't let me get started on the anti-evidences (i.e. no historical confirmation of BOM story, no trace of Jewish DNA in the early American populations, no historical knowledge of any 'Reformed Egyptian' language, etc.)
Joseph Smith did this. Biblically, he should have had a more witness to substantiate his claim.
The three witnesses of the book of Mormon ( http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/thrwtnss )
The Testimony of the Eight Witnesses (http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/eghtwtns )
Joseph Smith’s Own Testimony (http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/jsphsmth )
How many witnesses did you say were needed?
Not one of these witnesses knows that what Joseph Smith said was true.
At the best, some of these saw something which could be described as 'golden plates' ... but only Joseph Smith has any real knowledge of what was written thereupon ... or not.
And it is quite possible that even Joseph Smith doesn't know ...
... and that he was just a pawn, himself, in a great spiritual deception.
And ... of course, the evidence (the golden plates) have vanished, ... so that noone else can examine them ... or read any writings that might have been there.
How fortunate we are that the Biblical scriptures are much more present. That we can read for ourselves (if we but learn Greek or Hebrew) ... what the original writers wrote.
How fortunate we are that the Biblical sagas ... are well-established in the historical record.
How fortunate we are that the Biblical documents (which are available for all the world to see) ... sprang from the writings of over 40 authors, writing over the course of thousands of year, ... and yet, all telling the same story.
When one looks at the foundation for the BOM, one realizes that it is all held up ... by just one testimony (that of Joseph Smith). If Joseph Smith was wrong or deceived, then the whole Mormon structure comes crashing down.
How fortunate we are ... that the Bible rests upon much more solid ground.
What evidences are those ?
How about the fact that the church survives to this day? Facing the opposition it did, this church is a living testament to the divinity of Joseph Smith’s Calling, Scriptures, prophecies, healings, testimony, all this is denied by you.
Truly, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
>>Not one of these witnesses knows that what Joseph Smith said was true.
Funny, they say they do, Talked about hearing a command straight from God, well I guess they must all be liars then.
(Hint; Go read the testimonies before telling me what’s not in them)
>>And it is quite possible that even Joseph Smith doesn't know ...
And it is quite possible that you don’t know what you are talking about, it’s possible there is no such thing as free Republic and that computers are a figment of my imagination; it’s possible you don’t exist.
How far down this rabbit hole do you want to go? Let’s have some fun!
>>How fortunate we are that the Biblical documents (which are available for all the
>>world to see) ... sprang from the writings of over 40 authors, writing over the course of
>>thousands of year, ... and yet, all telling the same story.
Have you read the Gospel of Judas yet? It talks of Christ’s Marriage to Mary Magdalene, dissention between Apostles. It’s causing quite a stir. How about the other books of the Apocrypha, and who decided they shouldn’t be in the Bible, Oh yeah, Constantine, emperor of Rome, oops I mean Pope. How about the Writings of Hippolytus, Great Grandson of St. John (you know The Apostle) his works were mostly destroyed by Constantine including the book written to refute all heresies? (We know from books written about it the he taught that God the Father and Jesus Christ were separate beings one of the things you vilified us for teaching, and hey Just how did Joseph Smith know this…).
>>How fortunate we are ... that the Bible rests upon much more solid ground.
You need to research how it was compiled.
Is it possible the “Ground” is not so solid? Is it possible I am a software program written just to annoy you with Internet links to sites that I write just so I can post them for you. Is it possible this is a fantastic waste of time as you try to “Prove” a negative?
These and many more possibilities brought to you today by the letter X and people who try to debate someone else’s faith. Is it possible that “Proving” someone’s faith is wrong is a pointless exercise? I think it is.
BTW “Is it possible” is a really bad debating tactic as it throws the doors open a little too widely hence my mostly humorous response.
Which is more authoritative? God's Word(s) or angels word(s)
****
ANGELS OF THE LORD 659 VERSES
Gen. 16: 7
7 ¶ And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
Gen. 16: 9
9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Gen. 16: 10
10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen. 16: 11
11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen. 19: 1
1 AND there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
Gen. 19: 15
15 ¶ And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
Gen. 21: 17
17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen. 22: 11
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen. 22: 15
15 ¶ And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Gen. 24: 7
7 ¶ The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father’s house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.
Gen. 24: 40
40 And he said unto me, The LORD, before whom I walk, will send his angel with thee, and prosper thy way; and thou shalt take a wife for my son of my kindred, and of my father’s house:
Gen. 28: 12
12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
Gen. 31: 11
11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
Gen. 32: 1
1 AND Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.
Gen. 48: 16
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
Ex. 3: 2
2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Ex. 14: 19
19 ¶ And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Ex. 23: 20
20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Ex. 23: 23
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
Ex. 32: 34
34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
Ex. 33: 2
2 And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:
Num. 20: 16
16 And when we cried unto the LORD, he heard our voice, and sent an angel, and hath brought us forth out of Egypt: and, behold, we are in Kadesh, a city in the uttermost of thy border:
Num. 22: 22
22 ¶ And God’s anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
Num. 22: 23
23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.
Num. 22: 24
24 But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
Num. 22: 25
25 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall: and he smote her again.
Num. 22: 26
26 And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
Num. 22: 27
27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam’s anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.
Num. 22: 31
31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Num. 22: 32
32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
Num. 22: 34
34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.
Num. 22: 35
35 And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak.
Judg. 2: 1
1 AND an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
Judg. 2: 4
4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.
Judg. 5: 23
23 Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the LORD, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty.
Judg. 6: 11
11 ¶ And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abi-ezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.
Judg. 6: 12
12 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
Judg. 6: 20
20 And the angel of God said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
Judg. 6: 21
21 ¶ Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
Judg. 6: 22
22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face.
Judg. 13: 3
3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
Judg. 13: 6
6 ¶ Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:
Judg. 13: 9
9 And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her.
Judg. 13: 13
13 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.
Judg. 13: 15
15 ¶ And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
Judg. 13: 16
16 And the angel of the LORD said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the LORD.
Judg. 13: 17
17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
Judg. 13: 18
18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?
Judg. 13: 19
19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the LORD: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
Judg. 13: 20
20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
MORE
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=angels&search.x=22&search.y=11
THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
SECTION 1
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
Footnotes
38a 2 Kgs. 10: 10.
10 Know now that there shall fall unto the earth nothing of the word of the LORD, which the LORD spake concerning the house of Ahab: for the LORD hath done that which he spake by his servant Elijah.
Ps. 33: 11.
11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Ps. 119: 89.
89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Matt. 5: 18.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matt. 24: 35.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
2 Ne. 9: 16.
16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.
2 Ne. 10: 17.
17 For I will fulfil my promises which I have made unto the children of men, that I will do unto them while they are in the flesh—
D&C 5: 20.
20 Behold, I tell you these things, even as I also told the people of the destruction of Jerusalem; and my word shall be verified at this time as it hath hitherto been verified.
D&C 101: 64.
64 That the work of the gathering together of my saints may continue, that I may build them up unto my name upon holy places; for the time of harvest is come, and my word must needs be fulfilled.
Moses 1: 4.
4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.
JS-M 1: 35.
35 Although, the days will come, that heaven and earth shall pass away; yet my words shall not pass away, but all shall be fulfilled.
b TG Promise.
c Deut. 18: 18.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Jer. 7: 23 (21-28).
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
D&C 18: 35 (33-39).
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, and by my power you can read them one to another; and save it were by my power you could not have them;
D&C 21: 5.
5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.
TG Obedience.
TG Prophecy.
TG Revelation.
d Isa. 50: 10.
10 ¶ Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.
1 Jn. 4: 6 (1-6).
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
D&C 25: 16.
16 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my voice unto all. Amen.
TG Priesthood, Authority.
e 1 Thes. 4: 2.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
TG Prophets, Mission of.
TG Servant.
f TG Sustaining Church Leaders
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/1/38c
Have you read the Gospel of Judas yet? It talks of Christ’s Marriage to Mary Magdalene, dissention between Apostles. It’s causing quite a stir. How about the other books of the Apocrypha, and who decided they shouldn’t be in the Bible,
So ... do you think that the so-called Gospel of Judas ... should have a place among the scriptures ?
Never mind that it was written 200 years after the time of Christ ... which kind of blows any possibility that it could have been written by Judas.
The early church had dismissed the Gospel of Judas (and other similarly spurious writings) ... before Constantine ever came on the scene.
How about the Writings of Hippolytus, Great Grandson of St. John (you know The Apostle) his works were mostly destroyed by Constantine including the book written to refute all heresies? (We know from books written about it the he taught that God the Father and Jesus Christ were separate beings one of the things you vilified us for teaching, and hey Just how did Joseph Smith know this…).
I don't think that I've vilified anyone ... I believe I simply pointed out that the orthodox teaching of the Church is that The Father and the Son are distinct Persons, but are both the One Eternal God, along with the Holy Spirit.
Is it possible that “Proving” someone’s faith is wrong is a pointless exercise? I think it is.
Don't you desire to have true faith ?
Don't you wish to believe those things which God desires that you believe ?
BTW “It is possible” is a really bad debating tactic as it throws the doors open a little too widely hence my mostly humorous response.
This type of argument is quite effective ... when there is a lack of tangible evidence.
Ask any lawyer.
Lack of evidence ... should lead one to consider these types of questions.
If there was any corroboration by anyone ... for what Joseph Smith said that he read from the golden plates ... these questions wouldn't exist.
Unfortunately ... all we have is his single testimony.
>> These (referring to time) are all claimed by other "special books" or other religions to
>>give them supposed authority...nothing different from Mormonism to Koran (of which
>>I have already mentioned). Prove that Joe Smith did what he said he did - time wise;
>>video camera? Supreme Court rulings? I would hope that his 'friend' went 'fronting' for
>>him. I guess this goes back to the lies that someone had mentioned earlier...
Are you saying Joseph Smith started years before it is historically recorded that he did?
Ya got any proof to go with that accusation that he and others lied, or is your statement all I should need? (Get a Grip alert!)
>> Which is more authoritative? God's Word(s) or angels word(s)
Are they going to disagree? (I am assuming God sent the angel, that it is not an angel of darkness we are talking about.)
If God sends an angel to give you a command, does not that angel carry God’s Authority?
I personally see no difference in their authority.
Corinthians 12:3-6
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
So, Jesus is the Lord my God He is the redeemer of my soul, and the only Power under heaven by which man (of which I am) can be saved. I confess that I have committed sins of which I am striving diligently to repent, and through the atonement of Jesus Christ only have I hope of redemption that in the last day I may be saved with the just.
So, tmp02, by what spirit did I just testify of Christ? The Book of Mormon also testifies of Christ. Can a work that is from the Devil testify of Christ? Does the Koran, the Analects of Confucius? If not they are not of God, if so they are of God for they are by his spirit.
I ask you your opinion, am I speaking by the Spirit of God when I call Jesus Christ Son of Mary my Lord and Savior?
Hey, No fair responding while I'm still typing!!
(Snicker)
CF is hinting that one of us may be Rameumptom, it's not me, you?
Well, you actually violated two posting guidelines: One, you reffed me by a nickname w/out pinging me; and (2) IT WASN'T ME WHO SAID IT!
So, since you've attributed several of my comments to CC (ColorCountry), I guess you thought it was only "fair" that you attribute her comment to me?
Please try to keep us straight: Think of her as CC and me as CF.
We are NOT the same poster under two names.
David Witmer one of the three witnesses further describes the translation of the Book of Mormon process:
“I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”
So according to the witness, the gold plates were covered during the translation. The Book of Mormon came about because Joseph Smith stuck a rock in his hat (Urim & Thummin), put in his face, and told a story for Oliver Cowdery to write down. Does the physical existence of plates fit into this scenario? No, it doesn't. What does the phrase "power of God, and not by any power of man" mean exactly? Could they have been envisioning the plates since these witness never testified they touched or hefted the plates? And even if they did were they metal assayers did they say they could read the characters they "saw by the power of God, and not of man."
Is this evidence?
I didn't hint that it was one of you two. I clearly hinted that it might be an LDS apologist coming to play with us Freepers in order to hone their debate skill.
Unless one of you is a Church apologist, this would clearly be a smear tactic on your part. Also you should ping me when speaking of me.
I wanted to ping you to my post #535
Deut. 33: 8
8 ¶ And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
Ezra 2: 63
63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
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