Posted on 03/08/2006 7:22:57 PM PST by churchillbuff
Which isn't exactly a glowing testimony to the Eastern churches' evangelism efforts....
"Hmm. Anyone know when this doctrine first showed up, or was made official by the church? It isn't found in Scripture."
Like heck it isn't! (Heck is for people who don't believe in Gosh.)
The word purgatory is a Latin word, meaning cleansing. Like the Latin word "Trinity," the WORD doesn't exist in the bible, but the concept does.
In fact, at Worms, Martin Luther lost a debate wherein it was conclusively proven that the Books of Hebrews, the letters of Peter, Revelations, and Maccabees all refer to atonement. Luther responses by claiming that these books were not scriptural. Other Protestants movements couldn't break the Tradition of including Hebrews and Revelations; they were too well known. Maccabees, being a more obscure Old Testament book, was easier to cover up, especially since the Jews had rejected the book in AD 70 -- after Christ -- because it explicitly foretold the Resurrection.
The key thing is that Christ's atonement saves our souls from ETERNAL condemnation. That doesn't mean we don't have to live with the TEMPORAL suffering caused by our mistakes. If a man is promiscuously homosexual and catches AIDS, being saved saves his ETERNAL soul, but he still suffers the TEMPORAL consequence of the disease he has caught. If a teenage loses his leg pulling stunts on a railroad track, and is saved, it is his ETERNAL soul that is saved. He still deals with the TEMPORAL consequence of having only one leg. And no miracle worker around is going to make him grow another leg.
Likewise, when we sin, WE alienate OURSELVES from God. We know nothing impure can enter Heaven, and our shame holds us back, until we accept total forgiveness. Saints are those who are purified on this earth, and so for some time on earth experience a perfected will. Protestants insist that all who are "saved" are saints. Is that so? Can you command mountains to toss themselves into the sea? How many lepers have you healed? Are you totally without sin? Does your will confirm completely with God's? Even worse is the tendency for some brands of Protestants to establish that nothing they do can be a sin, because they still do it in spite of being saved.
So, let's see where the bible tells us of a place of suffering or incomplete beatific vision (complete spiritual intimacy with God):
Revelations depict saints and martyrs already in Heaven (such as 5:9-14). These are those who have already been made pure by the blood of the lamb (7:5-17). Those who are in Hades are resurrected only later, and they are judged according to their works (20:11-15). Are all the judged condemned? No! There exists a book of life (20:12), and only those who are not found in the book of life are condemned (20:15). THe "servants and saints" are rewarded, while the destroyers are destroyed (11:19). On that day, the Earth will be destroyed by fire. Paul writes that many will survive, but their works will be destroyed. They will survive, as one who passes through fire (1 Corinthians 3:13-15).
In 2 Maccabees, the Jews were promised that the faithful would not die in battle, but many who fought valiantly for the Lord did die. The comrades of the dead found that the dead had worn amulets, idolatry. They were so aggrieved for those they loved, that they atoned for the dead by offering up the loot from the war to the temple. "Thus he made atonement for the dead" (12:38-46). It was with this loot that the Temple was rededicated on December 25, a feast attended by Jesus (John 10:22). And when Jesus died, the Maccabees' altar and curtain were destroyed (Matthew 27:50-52).
There was no word for purgatory in the bible, simply because the Jews would not have comprehended such a word. They knew only of the grave (Sheol, translated to Hades for the Greeks). But was Hades necessarily a permanent place? Did only the eternally condemned suffer any time in Hades? Not at all! In fact, we are told that the gates of Hades will not withstand the church (Matthew 16:18). (This is unfortunately confusingly transalted as "prevail." How do gates "prevail?" The word means to "resist being thrown down.") The GATES to Hades, which enclose it, will be torn down by the church! It's a prison raid! It's right after Jesus tells Peter the church will raid the prison of Hades that Peter is given the KEYS to Heaven! (16:19) (There are other, very significant meanings to the symbolism.)
Also, the notion of a PRISON as a TEMPORAL dwelling in Hades occurs many times in the New Testament.
...but to answer your question more precisely, there are first-century tombstones bearing prayers and commitments to atonement for the dead, right under the still-living apostles' noses in Jerusalem and Antioch. If they had a problem with the practice, it's awfully strange that there is no biblical record of their opposition to it.
So the answer is that the doctrine was practiced in the early church in the time of the apostles exactly where the apostles preached.
I can't let that statement go by without a comment. The first and most important sacrament is Baptism. So I guess you better tell John the Baptist and Jesus that they performed an "abomination to God".
And if you think that the celebration of the Mass is another "abomination" - you better inform Jesus, who after changing the bread and wine into his body and blood, said, "Do this in memory of me"
I guess he must have just been joking!
Ping
BTTT!
Maybe he will now become a Catholic priest?
"not pagan rites and superstitions like "masses" and "sacraments, both of which are abomination to God!
I can't let that statement go by without a comment. The first and most important sacrament is Baptism. So I guess you better tell John the Baptist and Jesus that they performed an "abomination to God".
And if you think that the celebration of the Mass is another "abomination" - you better inform Jesus, who after changing the bread and wine into his body and blood, said, "Do this in memory of me"
I guess he must have just been joking!"
Just because Jesus baptised doesn't make the artificial, made-up "mass" legit. And when he said do this in memory of me, He meant just that. He didn't say eat me! Much of the Bible is alegorical. "I am the door" is a good example.
**
the main reason why he was on the road to hell was lack of love, pride, and disbelief.**
I think we can all work on these three!
"And heaven will be filled with some that you didn't think deserved to be there. Just remember that it's not your call, and the position of supreme being is filled."
When someone CLEARLY contradicts the Bible, it doesn't take amental giant to figure out they won't be in heaven. I dare say that Hitler, Pol Pot and others will be in hell too. I have confidence in God to make THAT call. I'm glad that He will be the one doing just that.
Actually -- no -- that is a Protestant belief. If you look hard enough, you will find Purgatory in the Bible. Not the word, Purgatory, but references to it.
Even St. Paul referred to Purgatory!
"I'm glad that you know exactly what God meant when he inspired the bible. Too bad that billions of others are wrong and only you are right.
"Judge not lest ye be judged.""
God didn't cause his word to be written and preserved for us if He hadn't thought we could interpret it. The Spirit who wrote it interprets it to believers in Jesus Christ.
You're on the right track with the statement: "billions of others are wrong ". "Broad is the way that leads to destruction (Jesus said) and many there be that go that way"
Jesus also said, "Judge a righteous judgement". You make hundreds of judgements every day and they'd better be good ones in some cases, such as waiting to drive onto a highway if there's a double-botton gravel truck coming. Judgement: "How far away? What is its closing speed?.
Judging is part of our lives.
Yes, references to Purgatory, a place of purification are in the Bible.
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Must have felt that ol pitchfork poking him in the rump.
Of course it is - but not judging whether someone goes to heaven or hell. God reserves the right to do that. That's not what we are here for. You have no right to claim that Mother Theresa is in hell, just because you are obviously anti-Catholic.
BTW, you seem to have evaded my original question:
Do you honestly believe that someone can be as evil and cruel as possible for 75 years and then be "saved" in the last ten seconds of their life and still be treated the same as someone who led a life of self-sacrifice and doing for others? I still find that very hard to believe. If what you say is true, then what is the incentive to be good?
John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
... around Passover, exactly a year before the Last Supper.
Much of the Bible is alegorical. "I am the door" is a good example.
That's metaphor, not allegory. "Eat my flesh and drink my blood" is not metaphor, and it's not allegory either.
And don't forget what came next:
John 6:60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Thanks, have to run but I'll read this later.
Makes sense and agrees with the Vedas as well.
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