Anglican Options: Rome or Orthodoxy?

Western Orthodoxy ^ | NA | By Fr. Chad Hatfield

[jecIIny]

It is widely agreed on FR that ECUSA is a heretical body. With this in mind there seems to be a consensus that those in ECUSA should leave and seek spritual succor elsewhere. For those of the non-evangelical tradition the two logical places to go are either the Roman Catholic Church or Orthodoxy. This essay presents an argument for Orthodoxy.

[FormerLib]

A good argument could be made either way.

There isn't an argument that can be made for staying put, however.

[Kolokotronis]

You may want to consider pinging your list, my friend. This is an interesting article worth the read. Just tonight at the Presanctified Liturgy there were three or four former Episcopalians/Canadian Anglicans in attendence.

[ArrogantBustard]

Well, now! I thought you might find this interesting ... The author comes to a slightly different conclusion than you did.

[AnAmericanMother]

I respect his opinion, some people are more comfortable swimming the Bosporus rather than the Tiber, but he sets up a straw man at the very beginning.

There are loony Catholic parishes and they seem to get all the press, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Our parish is profoundly orthodox (little 'o').

I'm sure if I hunted around I could find some goofy Orthodox congregations . . . but I wouldn't judge the entire church by them . . .

[Conservative til I die]

I would think Catholicism makes more sense for a converting Anglican. Putting my bias toward my own faith aside, culturally and ritually, Anglicans share more in common with Western Catholicism. Although I guess in a way I'm using one of my biggest beefs against Orthodoxy (ethno-centrism) to make my case *for* Catholicism.

[jecIIny]

"You may want to consider pinging your list, my friend."

You and FormerLib are pretty much my list. When I need something to be sent out I ping one or both of you. I agree it's a good article. I just got back from Presanctified Liturgy where I met with my prospective God Father (himself a former Episcopalian, now Orthodox many years). Feel free to ping anyone you want.

[jecIIny]

"There are loony Catholic parishes and they seem to get all the press, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Our parish is profoundly orthodox (little 'o').

I'm sure if I hunted around I could find some goofy Orthodox congregations . . . but I wouldn't judge the entire church by them . . ."

It's possible there are some goofy Orthodox parishes. But I have never found one. Coming from Catholicism I would have to say that your odds of finding an orthodox (small 'o') parish will vary from diocese to diocese. I have stumbled on more than my share of radical liberalism in the Catholic Church. I have of course also found very conservative and good parishes. But in some diocese they are the minority. Thats not the case in Orthodoxy. The terms liberal and conservative are relative terms here. A "liberal" Orthodox jurisdiction is one where the priests might wear a Roman collar with a black suit and (horror!) might even be clean shaven. I think the most scandalous thing I have heard of in an Orthodox parish is that a very few Greek parishes have allowed organs in them. By contrast conservative jurisdictions or diocese will discourage wearing western clerical attire, not permit smoking by the clergy, and some parishes will not have western style pews (one of my pet peeves).

The theological nuttiness that is fairly common in the Latin Church generally does not exist in the Orthodox Church. This is not to say we have less sinning going on. A quick glance at the divorce and abortion rates for Greece and Russia will put a quick end to that theory. But we don't have people running around saying women should be ordained as priests or gay people should be allowed to marry in the Church. There are no "Orthodox Christians for Abortion Rights" groups. It's not impossible that there are some people raised in the Orthodox Church who might subscribe to those views. But those that do tend to either leave the faith or keep their opinions to themselves. If anything its more likely you would stumble onto some weird ultra-conservative old calendarist sect that claims to be the "True Orthodox Church" or some such nonsense. They have as much standing with us as sede vecantists do in the Roman Catholic Church.

[jecIIny]

"I would think Catholicism makes more sense for a converting Anglican. Putting my bias toward my own faith aside, culturally and ritually, Anglicans share more in common with Western Catholicism. Although I guess in a way I'm using one of my biggest beefs against Orthodoxy (ethno-centrism) to make my case *for* Catholicism."

I can understand that point of view. The form of worship in Anglicanism, especially High Church liturgy is much closer to pre-Vatican II Catholic worship. And for many people the Byzantine rite is so alien that it can be an impediment to conversion. I know at least two people who are theologically Orthodox but would not convert due to their difficulty relating to the rites. Although I am extremely comfortable with with the Byzantine Liturgy and the attendant rites, I have become something of a lone champion on FR of the small but growing Western Rite of the Orthodox Church.

[Dumb_Ox]

It seems to me, and many others, that Rome is experiencing a re-discovery of the Protestant Reformation with people like Archbishop Weakland of Milwaukee, Anna Quindlen, Rosemary Radford-Reuther and Richard McBrien leading the charge much like a new vision5 of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Cranmer!

These folks aren't exactly on the cutting edge. They'll be dead or senile in two or three decades, tops. Is he seriously invoking Newsweek's Anna Quindlen as a Catholic thinker? That is really funny.

Wish him the best, though.

[Convert from ECUSA]

Thanks! I wonder what I would have done had I not had my group of Catholic friends, one of whom goes to your parish, St. Veronica. Several of them had gone to St. Timothy when my Fr. O'Brien was pastor there, and the recommended him. He was at St. James by that time, so I went there, saw solid liturgy and no foolishness. I had considered both Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Rite Catholicism, and if I'd not found St. James and Fr. O'Brien, there is a good possibility that I'd be an Eastern Christian of some sort today.

[jo kus]

It's possible there are some goofy Orthodox parishes. But I have never found one. Coming from Catholicism I would have to say that your odds of finding an orthodox (small 'o') parish will vary from diocese to diocese. I have stumbled on more than my share of radical liberalism in the Catholic Church. I have of course also found very conservative and good parishes. But in some diocese they are the minority. Thats not the case in Orthodoxy

The same arguments could have been said, reversing the Western Church with the Eastern Church and vice versus, when relating the first 1000 years of Christianity, especially during the time of Arianism, Nestorianism, and Monophysitism. The East was seen as the fickle brother who moved and flowed with the tide of culture and the emperor-in-power's flavor. We in the West have undergone massive cultural changes in the last 50 years. It is not surprising that the Western branch of Apostolic Christianity is trying to get a feel for itself. There are many churches that seem liberal, others more orthodox. We are a sign of our times and culture, just as the Eastern churches of Constantinople were in the first millenium.

I don't see this as one half being better than the other. Just as men, our churches face our own respective hurdles in coming to Christ. Just as men, during different points of our lives, we struggle, and at other times, we are at peace. We in the West are undergoing our "Dark Night of the Soul", a time of purging - just as churches in the East have faced the same actions, brought on by a loving God.

Regards

[Kolokotronis]

"It's possible there are some goofy Orthodox parishes. But I have never found one."

I have! And they are goofy usually for one of two reasons. First, because they are more ethnic clubs than parishes of The One Church and second, because they are made up of converts, usually from Protestantism, they are simply a bunch of Protestantants playing at Orthodox forms. In fact, the latter has so infected elements of the Orthodox Church here that the SCOBA approved "Sunday School" curriculum is nothing more than a sola scriptura, every man a pope mess! I don't blame the converts; I blame the hierarchs that allow these parishes to exist without proper oversight.

I do think that the Latin Church in this country has rather seriously gone off the rails, but trust me, Orthodoxy isn't even remotely immune from whackiness!

[FormerLib]

You and FormerLib are pretty much my list.

Then I'd better get going on this, eh?

[Cheverus]

Good article, well thought out. I work with a Conservative Episcopalian (oxymoron?) that I would bet dollars to donuts would become a Catholic if we still used the 1962 Missal or if there were a Universal indult.

I think this is valuable article to Catholics as a commentary on how an outsider views Liturgical innovation.

Thank God for Benedict XVI

One question arises though: What became of his compatriot Cannon Kimmet?

[Cheverus]

I heard from an Orthodox gentleman I know (former ELCA) that one of the Parishes in Boston has a goofy reputation....it would seem that in the Orthodoxy Parishes goofiness depends on the Priest while in Catholic Parishes Goofiness depends on the Nuns.

[Kolokotronis]

"...it would seem that in the Orthodoxy Parishes goofiness depends on the Priest while in Catholic Parishes Goofiness depends on the Nuns."

LOL! But you know, we keep our nuns locked up in monasteries where they can cause little or no trouble. :)

[sitetest]

Dear AnAmericanMother,

It's also interesting that some of the looneys that the author names - Rembert Weakland, Richard O'Brien, etc. - are folks who are already passing from the scene.

I have a friend who is a professor at the Catholic University of America, in philosophy. He tells me that the heretical old guard is still doing their best to hang on. However, they've mostly lost their grip in the philosophy department, and their hold in the theology department is beginning to slip, as well. The movement to orthodoxy is already set in place, as the large bulk of the younger faculty are charter memberes of the Ratzinger Fan Club.


sitetest

[ArrogantBustard]

I'm glad to hear that my fellow parishoners are, by the Grace of God, helping folks get pointed in the right direction. Funny thing is, if you had ended up in the liturgical East, you might be hanging out with some other of my friends at Holy Transfiguration. Small world ...

[Kolokotronis]

Melkites are good folks!