Posted on 02/21/2006 2:17:28 PM PST by Aussie Dasher
THE head of the World Council of Churches has expressed concern about the spread of megachurches around the world, such as Hillsong in Sydney, saying they could lead to a Christianity that is "two miles long and one inch deep".
The WCC General Secretary Samuel Kobia said megachurches - huge Protestant churches with charismatic pastors, lively music and other services - mostly ran on a business model to make worshippers feel good and were shallow in their theology.
Megachurches, which pack in thousands for rousing Sunday worship services, are popular in suburbs in the United States. Most are evangelical or Pentecostal, with few or no ties to mainline churches such as the Lutherans or Episcopalians.
Mr Kobia said the megachurch movement, which is not represented in the mostly mainline Protestant or Orthodox World Council of Churches, broke down borders among denominations with a populist message.
"It has no depth, in most cases, theologically speaking, and has no appeal for any commitment," the Kenyan Methodist said at the WCC world assembly in this Brazilian city.
The megachurches simply wanted individuals to feel good about themselves, he said.
"It's a church being organised on corporate logic. That can be quite dangerous if we are not very careful, because this may become a Christianity which I describe as 'two miles long and one inch deep'."
Reverend Geoff Tunnicliffe, international director of the 400 million member World Evangelical Alliance, said at the assembly that "historical and deeply-felt issues" separated them from other branches of Christianity.
The largest US megachurches attract some 20,000 worshippers every Sunday. Abroad, megachurches have also sprouted up in Australia, South Korea, Britain, Canada, and other countries.
According to a report by the Hartford Institute for Religion Research, there were 1210 US churches drawing more than 2000 worshipers, the official minimum for a megachurch. That was double the number in 2000.
The WCC groups nearly 350 Protestant and Orthodox churches that mostly broke away from the Roman Catholic Church in the Great Schism of 1054 or in the 16th century Reformation.
Thus, all the glory of our salvation belongs to Jesus Christ alone who did the work for us. Christ plead our case before God, and so we are judged blameless because He took upon Himself the punishment due us.
All as God ordained from before the foundation of the world.
The fact is that the predestination is not even dealing with salvation but with eternal security, that the believer, being seen in Christ, IS predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ (ultimate glorification).
Now the reason for this is Predestination is a preforeseen faith, which puts the believer into Christ(Eph.1:4).
This is all New Testament doctrine, not occuring in the Old Testament.
The Calvinists make Sovereignity the dominate attribute of God, ignoring all others (love, wisdom etc), when in fact, God's sovereignity is not even an attribute, but the result of His other attributes.
The dominate attributes of God's essence is Holiness which cannot be compromised, and Love, which motivates everything God does, including judgement on sin.
How kind of you to share your thoughtful insight.
Notice how folks seem to know everything about every single church (probably numbering in the thousands) that has over 2000 parishoners? Yep, they must all be run by the same person.
I notice Megachurch has been defined down to include any church with over 2000 people, and defined further to exclude the definer's own denomination, because in total they could be hundreds of times larger. Then, the leftovers are put in the same basket. Basically, analysis worthy of a kindergartener.
Here we go:
Megachurch (me-ga-ch-r-ch), n. A big, ugly church that I don't go to that plays instruments I don't like.
You've nailed it.
If salvation is determined by "foreseen" faith, how is that not a work of righteousness on the part of the sinner?
IIRC you are one of the few Arminians who actually admits that WOULD BE a work of righteousness.
However, you are then left with contradicting all of Romans 8 and 9.
Men sin every day of their lives. We cannot stop sinning, and thus, we cannot ever atone for our sins because while we may ask for forgiveness today, tomorrow we'll go right on sinning.
Fortunately for us, Christ stands between us and the perfect judgment of God. Christ shoulders our guilt and pays for our sins Himself, every one of them, today's, tomorrow's and yesterday's. So now we stand blameless before God, NOT because of our own righteousness (of which we have none), but because of CHRIST'S righteousness.
The distinction is profound and explicit.
Romans 4:2-5 is very clear on what a work is,
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God, Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. bot to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for rightousness.
Faith is simply trusting in what God has said about His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ in the scriptures (1Cor.15:3-5, Rom.10:9-10)
But faith, like all gifts, is given by God.
Agreed.
But faith, like all gifts can be rejected as well as received.
God has given all men enough faith to seek God (Rom.1) and to believe the Gospel when they hear it.
It is they who must use that faith correctly.
That becomes the issue of the will.
No different then a Christian who sins after he is saved, he is resisting the grace of God (Rom.7, Eph.4, 1Thess.5)
Either we have been redeemed by Christ's atonement alone or we haven't.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth " -- 2 Thessalonians 2:10-13"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
"Chosen to believe."
"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ" -- 1 Thessalonians 1:2-5
And where do these works of faith and love and patience come from?
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
All glory to God alone.
Actually, the 2000 figure (attendance per week, as many churches do not have actual members) has been true for years as the average membership in churches in the US is 180, IIRC.
Someone recently coined the word "GigaChurch" to describe churches that have weekly attendance of 10,000 or more.
My church falls into the latter category.
In violation of scriptural occupancy limits, too! :-)
ROFL
You've captured the wit of this thread perfectly.
LOL
The biggest problem with a giga church is that you have to be really really good to make it into the worship group. Our back up guitar player is a five time grammy nominee.
Note that Paul is speaking to saved people.
The 'work of faith' is faith at work (James 2)
We are to bear fruit by using our faith in our Christian walk (Gal.5).
As for Phil.2, that is talking about God working from within you to form Christ in you, the very thing we are Predestinated to become, 'conformed to the image of Christ'.
Our responsibilty (choice) is to yield (Rom.6) our will, so God can work in us.
We will be rewarded for our 'works' at the Judgement seat of Christ (1Cor.3).
Where does it say that?
It says that there are those who do not believe because they have not the love of the truth.
For those who do believe, God has chosen them for salvation (election) through sanctification (Eph.1).
God knew who would believe and who would not and chose those who would to be saved in Christ (New Testament).
All men were savable and all had a choice to respond or reject God's free offer of salvation.
This verse lines up with Rom. 8 and Predestination to ultimate glorification being conformed to the image of Christ.
Your view is pure Roman Catholicism, whether you agree to see it or not.
God ordained the elect from before the foundation of the world, based on nothing in the individuals themselves, based solely upon His good pleasure. Or else our righteousness saves us. And Scripture clearly says it doesn't.
If God saves men on "foreseen" faith, they why does he go ahead and make someone anyway whom He knows will not "choose" faith and who will burn in hell? Doesn't seem like much of a "choice" to me.
That works for me. Ephesians shouts it. God decides who goes to heave; we don't. If we had the last yea or nay, we would be the final arbiter to our salvation. "ye shall be as gods..."
Read some more of the Institutes, not just an Arminian commentary.
8~)
Gotta go. Can't play today. Enjoy the weekend.
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