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To: gscc; Cronos; Jaded; SoothingDave; annalex
The Shroud of Tourin can not possibly be the grave clothing of Jesus Christ.

John 20:4  
So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter,
and came first to the sepulchre.

5  And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.

6  Then cometh Simon Peter following him,
and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,

7  And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

Case closed.

2,281 posted on 03/01/2006 9:49:02 AM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: Full Court

"And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself."

that's the Sudarium. Read more here:

http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm


2,284 posted on 03/01/2006 10:06:26 AM PST by Nihil Obstat
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To: Full Court; gscc; Cronos; Jaded; SoothingDave; annalex

M'kay.

The Shroud and the Sudarium are two different articles. The former is in Turin, the later is in Oviedo, Spain. Documentation of the Sudarium is much older than that of the Shroud.

Do you really think they had a mortuary where the redressed people complete with shoes and socks?

John 20:4-7 (New International Version)
4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.
5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.
6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,
7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen.

Luke 24:12 (New International Version)
12Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

John 20:4-7 (New American Standard Bible)
4The two were running together; and the other disciple ran ahead faster than Peter and came to the tomb first;
5and (A)stooping and looking in, he saw the (B)linen wrappings lying there; but he did not go in.
6And so Simon Peter also came, following him, and entered the tomb; and he saw the linen wrappings lying there,
7and (C)the face-cloth which had been on His head, not lying with the (D)linen wrappings, but rolled up in a place by itself.

Luke 24:12 (New American Standard Bible)
12But Peter got up and (A)ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he saw the linen wrappings only; and he went away (B)to his home, marveling at what had happened.

John 20:4-7 (Amplified Bible)
4And they came running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and arrived at the tomb first.
5And stooping down, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not enter.
6Then Simon Peter came up, following him, and went into the tomb and saw the linen cloths lying there;
7But the burial napkin (kerchief) which had been around Jesus' head, was not lying with the other linen cloths, but was [still] [a]rolled up (wrapped round and round) in a place by itself.

Luke 24:12 (Amplified Bible)
12But Peter got up and ran to the tomb; and stooping down and looking in, he saw the linen cloths alone by themselves, and he went away, wondering about and marveling at what had happened.

John 20:4-7 (King James Version)
4So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

Luke 24:12 (King James Version)
12Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

John 20:4-7 (Darby Translation)
4And the two ran together, and the other disciple ran forward faster than Peter, and came first to the tomb,
5and stooping down he sees the linen cloths lying; he did not however go in.
6Simon Peter therefore comes, following him, and entered into the tomb, and sees the linen cloths lying,
7and the handkerchief which was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded up in a distinct place by itself.

Luke 24:12 (Darby Translation)
12But Peter, rising up, ran to the sepulchre, and stooping down he sees the linen clothes lying there alone, and went away home, wondering at what had happened.

John 20:4-7 (Wycliffe New Testament)
4 And they twain ran together [Forsooth they two ran together], and that other disciple ran before Peter, and came first to the grave.
5 And when he stooped, he saw the sheets lying, nevertheless he entered not [in].
6 Therefore Simon Peter came following him, and he entered into the grave, and he saw the sheets laid,
7 and the sudarium that was on his head, not laid with the sheets, but by itself wrapped into a place.

Luke 24:12 (Wycliffe New Testament)
12 But Peter rose up, and ran to the grave; and he bowed down, and saw the linen clothes lying alone. And he went by himself, wondering on that that was done. [a]

John 20:4-7 (Douay-Rheims Bible)
4 And they both ran together, and that other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. 5 And when he stooped down, he saw the linen cloths lying; but yet he went not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter, following him, and went into the sepulchre, and saw the linen cloths lying, 7 And the napkin that had been about his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but apart, wrapped up into one place.

Luke 24:12 (Douay-Rheims Bible )
12 But Peter rising up, ran to the sepulchre, and stooping down, he saw the linen cloths laid by themselves; and went away wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.


2,286 posted on 03/01/2006 10:17:35 AM PST by Jaded (The truth shall set you free, but lying to yourself turns you French.)
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To: Full Court
The Shroud of Tourin can not possibly be the grave clothing of Jesus Christ.

7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.


you're free to believe in it or not, but the reason you give for it is really funny, and pretty true of most of your posts -- illogical. The verse doesn't say that the shroud was not wrapped around His face as well with a napkin about the head over it. It doesn't say anything to prove OR disprove the Shroud. Understand that ambiguity. Christianity is about Christ, not poring over a book like the Moslems slave over the Koran
2,323 posted on 03/01/2006 10:22:25 PM PST by Cronos (Remember 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia! Ultra-Catholic: Sola Scriptura leads to solo scriptura.)
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