Where Have All the Protestants Gone?

NOR ^ | January 2006 | Thomas Storck

[NYer]

Has anyone noticed the almost complete disappearance of Protestants from our nation? "What!" I can hear my readers exclaim, "Storck has really gone off his rocker this time. Why, just down the street there's an Assembly of God church and two or three Baptist churches and the Methodists and so on. My cousin just left the Catholic Church to become a Protestant and my niece just married one. Moreover, evangelical Protestants have many media outlets of their own and they have great influence in the Bush Administration. They're everywhere." All this, of course, is true. Except that for some time, they no longer call themselves Protestants, but simply Christians, and increasingly they've gotten Catholics to go along with their terminology.

I recall over 10 years ago when I was a lector at Mass, for the prayer of the faithful I was supposed to read a petition that began, "That Catholics and Christians…." Of course, I inserted the word "other" before "Christians," but I doubt very many in the congregation would even have noticed had I not done so. Just the other day I saw on a Catholic website an article about a Protestant adoption agency that refused to place children with Catholic parents. The headline referred not to a Protestant adoption agency but to a Christian one. And how often do we hear of Christian bookstores or Christian radio stations or Christian schools, when everyone should know they are Protestant ones?

Now, what is wrong with this? Well, it should be obvious to any Catholic -- but probably isn't. Are only Protestants Christians? Are we Catholics not Christians, indeed the true Christians? About 30 years ago, Protestants, especially evangelicals, began to drop the term Protestant and call themselves simply Christians as a not too subtle means of suggesting that they are the true and real Christians, rather than simply the children of the breakaway Protestant revolt of the 16th century. This shift in Protestant self-identification has taken on increasingly dramatic proportions. A recent Newsweek survey (Aug. 29-Sept. 5, 2005) found that, between 1990 and 2001, the number of Americans who consider themselves "Christian" (no denomination) increased by 1,120 percent, while the number of those who self-identify as "Protestant" decreased by 270 percent.

But perhaps I am getting too worked up over a small matter. After all, are not Protestants also Christians? Yes, I do not deny that. But usually we call something by its most specific name.

Protestants are theists too, but it would surely sound odd if we were to refer to their radio stations and bookstores as theistic radio stations and theistic bookstores. Language, in order to be useful, must convey human thought and concepts in as exact a way as it can. And, in turn, our thoughts and concepts should reflect reality. As Josef Pieper noted, "if the word becomes corrupted, human existence will not remain unaffected and untainted."

Moreover, words often convey more than simple concepts. A certain word may seem only to portray reality, but in fact it does more. It adds a certain overtone and connotation. Thus, it is not a small matter whether we speak of "gays" or of homosexuals. The former term was chosen specifically to inculcate acceptance of an unnatural and immoral way of life. When I was an Episcopalian, I was careful never to speak of the Catholic Church, but of the Roman Catholic Church, as a means of limiting the universality of her claims. I always called Episcopal ministers priests, again as a means of affirming that such men really were priests, in opposition to Leo XIII's definitive judgment that Anglican orders are invalid and thus that they are in no sense priests. Perhaps because of these early experiences, I am very aware of the uses of language to prejudge and control arguments, and I am equally careful now never to call Episcopal ministers priests or refer to one as Father So-and-So. And I think we should likewise not go along with the evangelical Protestant attempt to usurp the name Christian for themselves. They are Protestants, and public discourse should not be allowed to obscure that fact.

Apparently, though, it is the case that some Protestants call themselves Christians, not out of a desire to usurp the term, but out of an immense ignorance of history. That is, they ignore history to such an extent that they really don't understand that they are Protestants. Knowing or caring little about what came before them, they act as if their nicely bound Bibles had fallen directly from Heaven and anyone could simply become a Christian with no reference to past history, ecclesiology, or theology. The period of time between the conclusion of the New Testament book of Acts and the moment that they themselves "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior" means nothing. Even Luther or Calvin or John Wesley mean little to them, since they can pick up their Bibles and start Christianity over again any time they want. These souls may call themselves simply Christians in good faith, but they are largely ignorant of everything about Church history. They do not understand that Jesus Christ founded a Church, and that He wishes His followers to join themselves to that Church at the same time as they join themselves to Him. In fact, one implies and involves the other, since in Baptism we are incorporated in Christ and made members of His Church at the same time.

So let us not go along with the widespread practice of calling our separated brethren simply Christians. They are Protestants. Let us begin again to use that term. It is precise. It implies Catholic doctrine in the sense that it suggests that such people are in protest against the Church. Moreover, it forces them to define themselves in terms of, rather than independently of, the One True Church. And if we do resume referring to our separated brethren as Protestants, perhaps a few of them might even be surprised enough to ask us why -- and then, behold, a teachable moment!

[Full Court]

Furthermore, Catholics are the largest denomination in the USA.

Matthew 7:13
 Enter ye in at the strait gate:
for wide is the gate, and broad is the way,
that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14  Because strait is the gate,
and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it.

[Full Court]

Do Catholics read the Bible as much as any of the "bible Christians"? Yes.

Answer: No. And they don't even believe it's all true.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html

Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

[Jaded]

It gets really old going over the exact same points over and over and over for each wave of assertions.

Archbishop Sheen was right people hate what they think we are and they really really don't want to know the actual truth. I pray that all of these will see the light or at least less darkness.

Peace

[markomalley]

May God have mercy on your soul.

[gscc]

Did you miss this? You offered to enlighten me!! You offered to free me from my ignorance. To quote you: "But if you choose to stay in your ignorance, feel free. If you'd seriously like to discuss doctrine, I'll be happy to do so."

So show how this doctrine is supported by scripture.  Please no cut and pastes from Catholic apologetic sites:

The Catholic doctrine of intercession and invocation is set forth by the Council of Trent, which teaches that

the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Who alone is our Redeemer and Saviour. Those persons think impiously who deny that the Saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert either that they do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us is idolatry, or that it is repugnant to the word of God, and is opposed to the honour of the one Mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ (Sess. XXV).

[Full Court]

May God have mercy on your soul.

He already has. Through the finished work of His SOn Jesus Christ, who ONCE for ALL paid the price for sin.

I am free from trying to earn my salvation through my worthless works and filthy flesh.

Jesus paid it all.

Praise God.

[Full Court]

[saints]It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, How do you get in touch with the dead? Seance?

[kerryusama04]

But, of course, *you* don't have any preconceived notions when reading Scripture, for the Holy Spirit guides you, doubtless. Even to the point of revealing to you demonstrably false notions on the state of the soul after death that nearly all PROTESTANTS would disagree with you about. Yet you say that it is Catholics who are making "a really big wager" with respect to interpretation of Scripture!

I had preconceived notions when I the Bible. I was mature and humble enough to realize that what I believed was not true. I can sleep well with the fact that Protestants, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, etc. disagree with me. Jesus was crucified by consensus and 48+% of our country voted for John Kerry. What I care about is what the Bible actually says.

The vast majority of scripture says precisely that the "dead know not anything". A person cannot exist apart from a body. Elijah and Enoch are the only two people in scripture that did not suffer the first death. The rest of us will be resurrected and judged, and the wicked will suffer the second death. Jesus showed us the process by actually suffering the death for us, being resurrected in the same body (remember doubting Thomas), and physically ascending to heaven.

Believing that people don't actually die, but that their "spirits" leave them after death is pagan, misguided, and leads to retarded doctrines like thinking there are suicide bombers in heaven, each with 72 virgins, and they are rooting bin Laden on like the "dog pound" on the old Arsenio Hall show.

[kerryusama04]

you speak of things that are lies -- Catholics do not claim infallibility for all members of the Catholic Church (whether part of the Latin rite or any other rite), we do not claim it for the Pope for all matters and all events -- Papal infallibility is humanly limited -- to being ONLY on matters of dogma and ONLY when spoken from the seat of St. Peter's authority.

If the Pope's doctrinal abilities are as you say, then explain the need for Vatican II?

[AlaninSA]

Why is it that cowardly bigots like you are afraid (yes, afraid) to identify what sect of Protestantism to which you belong?

Is it that you're well aware of the strange and somewhat heretical beliefs espoused by your congregation (and that you know you'd easily be hammered for them)? Or is it that you're simply one who lacks faith in your own church and attempts to make it up by bashing that of others?

[PleaseNoMore]

I have yet to see where the saints in heaven can or do pray for us. I see in Revelations where the elders are seen by John to be holding up the bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints, not the intercessory prayers of others, but nothing indicating there are saints or these elders are in heaven praying for us. We do see from this scripture how precious OUR prayers are to God in that He regards them as sweet smelling incense in precious golden bowls. The connection between prayers and incense is clearly noted in Psalm 141:2.

It is also noted those who "go on" are at rest from their labor. “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest” (Heb. 4:9-11). The word 'rest" coming from the Greek ketapausis meaning 1) a putting to rest, 2) a resting place a) metaph. the heavenly blessedness in which God dwells, and of which he has promised to make persevering believers in Christ partakers after the toils and trials of life on earth are ended

Those of us who still live and breathe have a work to do and part of that work is praying for each other. Nowhere in scripture do we find the deceased or angels praying on our behalf.

I read the following on Catholic.com

"The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

My, my, my...A full reading of Psalms 148:1-4

Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels; praise Him, all His hosts! Praise Him, sun and moon; praise Him, all you stars of light! Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, and you waters above the heavens!

The psalmist continues, calling to the heavens, the waters, the beasts, the birds, the fire and the snow, and all the people of the earth to praise God. Are we to conclude that this psalm teaches us to invoke the angels? We might as well say that we should be praying to the sun and the moon and the stars as well.

Whether the saints who have passed into their rest can or cannot hear us I don't know. Because of the uncertainty I am not going to entrust my needs to them. I would rather go "boldly before the throne" and make my petitions known to God as clearly directed in scripture.

[gscc]

I have yet to see where the saints in heaven can or do pray for us.

I find plenty to reference Jesus as our intercessor.  I am awaiting markomalley to relieve me of my ignorance with regard to prayers to the dead saints to intercede for me.

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Hebrews 4:14-15

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

1 John 2:1-2

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[Salvation]

I think you are mistaken here. Our priest preaches on a passage from the Bible every week.

(More than you can say for some protestant churches.) Yes, I attended some where there was actually NO reading from the Bible.

You have two, three or four passages read from the Bible at every Catholic Mass in the entire world.

Get your facts straight before you start Catholic bashing on this point!

[Salvation]

You are finished until the day that you die!

[gscc]

I suppose that it is all relative. Our pastor preached from Jeremiah for almost a year with each sermon lasting 45 minutes. That you have two, three or four passages read from the Bible at every Catholic Mass in the entire world does not seem all that impressive when it comes to equipping the faithful.

[markomalley]

The Catholic doctrine of intercession and invocation is set forth by the Council of Trent, which teaches that:

the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Who alone is our Redeemer and Saviour. Those persons think impiously who deny that the Saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert either that they do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us is idolatry, or that it is repugnant to the word of God, and is opposed to the honour of the one Mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ (Sess. XXV).

I have yet to quote from a Catholic apologetics site, FRiend. And thanks for the softball.

Do you understand what was even written above?

I assume, since you have Jesus Christ, that you don't ever ask anybody to pray for you. Not your spouse, not your friends, not your church? And I assume that if somebody asks you to pray for them, that you straightly reprove them, telling them that it is immoral to come to you for intercession...and tell them to go straight to Jesus, that there is no need for you to pray for them.

I assume that your church does not have a prayer chain. And when there is a funeral, that there are no prayers offered for the bereaved family.

Am I correct?

Because if what you're saying about us asking the saints to pray for us is true, then it would likewise be idolatry to ask for your earthly friends and family to pray for you.

Or is it that you don't subscribe to the belief that the souls of the righteous are in heaven after they die?

If you believe in the value of praying for one another here on earth and if you believe that the soul of the Christian goes to heaven after death, it is ludicrous and positively unscriptural to believe that those souls wouldn't pray for those on earth after they've rejoined the Lord.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;

Rev 8:4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Before you state that those are only our prayers (or, I'm sorry, I guess I should say your prayers, since according to some of you, all Catholics are going to hell [which they look for with glee, apparently] and so obviously can't be saints), please look at Rev 6:9-11.

So, to me, it is patently obvious that the saints pray for us. And that it would be ludicrous not to ask for their prayers.

One other thing, I would suggest to you that you check out the WHOLE decree from Trent (this link is not an apologetics site, btw).

This decree also states:

And if any abuses have crept in amongst these holy and salutary observances, the holy Synod ardently desires that they be utterly abolished; in such wise that no images, (suggestive) of false doctrine, and furnishing occasion of dangerous error to the uneducated, be set up...

Moreover, in the invocation of saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of images, every superstition shall be removed...

But, again, allow me to thank you for the softball...

[reg45]

Let's see now. One double post plus one apology equals three posts.

[Diego1618]

That you believe your church decided what was Scripture and what was not is just another example of the arrogance of a church that worships itself.

This is the best line posted all week. Good job!

[Diego1618]

Different people keep making the same baseless assertions and people keep giving them Scripture references that they ignore.

I left the thread for a day or so. Which scripture is it that people have been ignoring?

[markomalley]

That you believe your church decided what was Scripture and what was not is just another example of the arrogance of a church that worships itself.

This is the best line posted all week. Good job!

---

Perhaps then you could provide an historical account of the formation of the formation of the Canon of the New Testament?