Where Have All the Protestants Gone?

NOR ^ | January 2006 | Thomas Storck

[Clay+Iron_Times]

So in your opinion which is correct out of all of these?

[Clay+Iron_Times]

I forgot .... nice table

[Titanites]

So in your opinion which is correct out of all of these?

Read the article.

They're all correct and just divided differently because there are actually more than ten imperative statements in the two relevant texts (Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 5:6-21).

The Catholic Church, though it has most commonly used the Augustinian-Lutheran division, has made no formal determination of the matter and is not dogmatic about how the Decalogue should be divided. Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

2066 The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.

[Titanites]

I forgot .... nice table

Thanks, but if you read the article, you'll see I just copied it.

[Clay+Iron_Times]

I did see that there were more ..yes

[Titanites]

I meant to ping you to #1280.

[Clay+Iron_Times]

So.. About the canons.. Are there any canons to support as to choosing of which 10 to go with? If so who were authors?

[Titanites]

So.. About the canons.. Are there any canons to support as to choosing of which 10 to go with? If so who were authors?

As the article I linked states, for the Catholic Church it is not a matter of dogma how the Decalogue should be divided. So, I think any of the ways the Decalogue is divided, as presented, is acceptable and I don't believe there is a canon the Church has issued on how they must be divided, but I am open to correction by those better informed if I'm mistaken.

I don't have the resources handy, but the Council of Trent stated that we are required to keep the commandments of God but I don't think the Council specified a requirement on how they are divided, but again, I am open to correction on this.

[Titanites]

I forgot to add in my last post that the traditional way of dividing them in the Catholic Church is according to Augustine, but again, it is not a dogma of the Church.

[Titanites]

So.. About the canons.. Are there any canons to support as to choosing of which 10 to go with? If so who were authors?

So how do you determine the divisions of the Decalogue? Scripture doesn't come right out and say this is the First Commandment, etc., so I'd be interested in knowing how you came about your tradition.

[InterestedQuestioner]

2 Peter 2:20-22, Luke 11:23-26.

Another very nice selection of Scripture, Clay+Iron_Times. Those are very interesting Scriptures to consider on that subject, and I appreciate you reflections.

"Luke 11:23 He who is not with Me is against Me : and he who gathers not with Me scatters .

-presents the fact that there is no neutrality with Christ, everything is either of the Devil or of Christ, there is no middle ground."

That's a very nice interpretation, since Christ elsewhere says: "He who is not against us is for us." (Mark 9:40) I think your interpretation captures the essence of both of those statements. Indifference is the same as opposition. That matches up very nicely with Revelation 3:14-16:

"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says: I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of My mouth."

[InterestedQuestioner]

Thanks for the Link, that's a good article.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"So.. About the canons.. Are there any canons to support as to choosing of which 10 to go with? If so who were authors?"


I'll speak to that question. First of all, however, let's get the actual 10 Commandments in front of us. None of those three lists are actually the decalogue:

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you. "You shall not kill. "You shall not commit adultery. "You shall not steal. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's."

(Exodus 20: 6-17)


"'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "'You shall have no other gods before me. "'You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. "'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. "'Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your manservant, or your maidservant, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day. "'Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you; that your days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with you, in the land which the LORD your God gives you. "'You shall not kill. "'Neither shall you commit adultery. "'Neither shall you steal. "'Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor. "'Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.' "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them upon two tables of stone, and gave them to me. (Deuteronomy 5: 6-22)

[Gargantua]

I was raised a Catholic. I had my First Communion, my Confirmation, I attended Cathechism until high school, and sat through the hours of "Pax dominus fobiscum, ecum spiritu tuo's". Then, in my adulthood, I started to read the Bible.

I saw what Jesus Christ teaches about the one true path to Salvation, and how it is diametrically opposed by the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I was baptized as an adult, as Jesus says we must be (as a conscious, public act of obedience to His Word (VERY different from what the Catholics consider a baptism).

Then, and only then, I received Christ's gift of the Holy Spirit, and had the scales of man's blindness removed from my eyes. It is this person who now writes to you. I write with a full, personal knowledge of the truth about Roman Catholicism, and with a deep and abiding love for you and every misled Catholic follower in my heart.

I relate to you what I know to be God's Truth because I want better for you than the Catholic deception and the bitter fruits it offers to those who blindly follow its hell-bent dogma.

;-/

[Titanites]

I was baptized as an adult, as Jesus says we must be

Which Scripture verse are you referencing where Jesus said this?

[Cronos]

Realizing that this is an extreme example (only in degree, not in kind), this is the main reason I could never be a Protestant. Once saved, always saved makes no sense, especially because it exists in the subjective theological context framed by Protestantism

well, actually, not all Protestants believe in this -- read this extremely detailed post on About Luther, Erasmus: Pre-destination and the Apostolic Church point of view versus the Calvinistic

As I've said in other posts, the term protestant is such an umbrella term: some protestants agree with Calvin (the concept of an "elect" -- people chosen from before time to be God's people and who will be saved at the end of time and others who will go to hell) and some (Arminians AFAIK) don't believe in this, they have views similar to the Orthodox-Catholic view.

[Cronos]

could you elaborate on what you see as Catholic deception?

[InterestedQuestioner]

"So.. About the canons.. Are there any canons to support as to choosing of which 10 to go with? If so who were authors?"


It's good to see you in the forum again, Clay+Iron_Times.

The three versions of the Decalogue are simply summaries, none of them are the actual Decalogue. We Catholics are not bound by any canons to accept one summary and reject another. Latin Catholics and many Lutherans typically utilize thee the version labeled as "Catholic," while Eastern Orthodox Catholics and many Protestants tend to utilize the one listed above as "Protestant." Apparently many Jews accept the other summary listed above. According the article that Titanites referenced above, St. Augustine was involved in the summary and division of the Augustinian-Lutheran version of the Decalogue. That would have been some time around the year 400 AD.

With regards to the 10 Commandments, it's not a question of choosing one Commandment over another. The Actual Commandments are listed in Exodus 20: 6-17, and in Deuteronomy 5: 6-22. You'll notice those passages don't actually tell us there are ten Commandments, nor are they broken up into ten clear Commandments. We are told elsewhere in Scripture that there are Ten Commandments (Literally, ten words).

"And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Words." (Exodus 34:28 )

"And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Words (Hebrew, eser dabar); and he wrote them upon two tables of stone." (Deuteronomy 4:13 )


"And he wrote on the tables, as at the first writing, the Ten Words (Hebrew, eser dabar)which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain out of the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me." (Deuteronomy 10:4 )


The three tables listed above are summaries of those Commandments, broken up in such a way as to convey 10 Commands. As there are more than 10 Imperative statements listed in the Decalogue, there is a question of how those statements should be arranged so as to have a 10 Command structure. Most of the groupings are very straightforward, but a few give rise to the differences. For example, "thou shalt not Murder, thou shalt not steal, and Thou Shalt not commit Adultery," all stand alone. But Should Thou Shalt not covet they neighbor's wife be lumped in with "Thou Shalt not desire thy Neighbor's property?"

Should the Scripture: "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments," be broken into two Commandments or should it be summarized as one?

Finally, should the words, "'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage," be the first "Commandment?"

The question is strictly one of Catechesis. The three tables listed above are all brief summaries of the actual Decalogue. The entire point of these summaries is to aid in their memorization. According to the Catholic Catechism, the Augustinian-Lutheran formulation (Listed above as the "Catholic" version,) was originally designed so that it could be rhymed (presumably in Latin) to aid in easy memorization and internalization.

Also note that the practice of summarizing the Decalogue is a very old tradition and is seen in the New Testament. Jesus himself summarizes the 10 Commandments, and if memory serves, different Evangelists reports different lists of His summaries. Note also that different summaries of the Decalogue are also put forth in the New Testament. For example, Paul's summary is different from Jesus' Summary.

"And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said,

1 )"You shall not kill,
2) You shall not commit adultery,
3) You shall not steal,
4) You shall not bear false witness,
5) Honor your father and mother, and,
6) You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matt 19: 17-20) (Numbers added by me)

(The list is slightly different in Mark's retelling of this story, it contains "do not defraud" instead of "Love your neighbor as yourself." Luke's version of the story lists only five Commands.)

" Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

The commandments,
1) "You shall not commit adultery,
2) You shall not kill,
3) You shall not steal,
4) You shall not covet,"
5) and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

"Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; the night is far gone, the day is at hand. Let us then cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light; let us conduct ourselves becomingly as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in debauchery and licentiousness, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (Romans 13: 7-14. I inserted the numbers into the Scripture here.)

So we see both Paul and Jesus summarize the Decalogue, and do so slightly differently. The whole point of the summaries is to help us memorize them so we can apply them to our daily lives. From there, we can spend the rest of our life studying the actual Decalogue as a way of understanding the two great Commandments.

But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" And he said to him,

1) "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment.

2) And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (Matt 22 34-40, numbers mine.)


As I see it, the Decalogue and the Sermon on the Mount are an elaboration on this teaching.

Interestingly, I recently saw an interview on with an ACLU spokesman who was arguing that the 10 Commandments must be removed from all of our public buildings. His argument was that the particular summary of the 10 Commandments was Protestant (not an entirely correct assertion, as it turns out,) and that it was repressive to his religion. He then claimed, with a barely straight face, that he was Catholic, and that this was repressive toward his religion. I wish, Clay+Iron_Times, that I had been the one conducting the interview, as he would have received his just deserts for such a harebrained comment.

As for me, I think that the Decalogue is absolutely foundational to American Civilization, and I would support having any of the above three summaries of it posted in public.

[InterestedQuestioner]

"Then, in my adulthood, I started to read the Bible. I saw what Jesus Christ teaches about the one true path to Salvation, and how it is diametrically opposed by the teachings of the Catholic Church."

That's a very interesting comment, Gargantua. Can you elaborate on what you understand to be the one true path to Salvation, and perhaps offer a few comments on how that is diametrically opposed to the teachings of the Catholic Church?

[Quester]

Where do you find Scriptural evidence that Jesus' "brothers" (actually His cousins, but I'll humor you. It's too late at night for a massive refutation of that idea right now) were non-believers at the time of His death? There is none. Cousins or brothers, there is not one shred of evidence that they were unbelievers.

The wonders of knowing scripture ...

John 7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

Tradition (there's a word you'll like) ... says that Jesus' brothers believed after He appeared to them following His resurrection.

If He had brothers, Jesus would have defied MASSIVE Jewish tradition against not favoring the eldest son in all things pertaining to inheritance.

Jesus had already defied MASSIVE Jewish tradition.

That's why they don't believe in Him.