The Church or the Bible

scriptual catholcism ^ | 1888 | Fr. Arnold Damen, S.J.

[GLDNGUN]

Until the Prots stop their self-righteous, condescending, prideful, arrogant, self-congratulatory thread hijacking of any Catholic thread, I'll take it into consideration.

With all due respect, "self-righteous, condescending, prideful, arrogant, and self-congratulatory" are traits of someone claiming to be part of "the one true church".

If you don't want "Prots" to comment on a "Catholic" thread, go post it on a Catholic board. This is not a Catholic board, so when a "Catholic" thread is started that claims they are the "one true church", expect a response.

If a "Prot" posted a thread calling the Catholic Church "the whore of Babylon", I fully expect a Catholic to respond and rightly so. Or would that be a Catholic "hijacking" a Protestant thread?

[InvisibleChurch]

but only the Bible is God breathed ... oral tradition is errant because it travels through man

[Kolokotronis]

"but only the Bible is God breathed ... oral tradition is errant because it travels through man"

Remarkable how that oral tradition got the "God breathed" part so very rught, isn't it?

[dread78645]

> **As I understand it, it was against 'Catholic' law for Catholics to read the bible for many centuries...**

Where are you getting this faulty Catholic information. This has never been the truth. We have always read the Bible and had first, second readings, a Psalm and a Gospel at each and every Mass.

Your post is outrageous.

He's speaking of the 19th ecumenical council at Trent:

"Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,--considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,--ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many years, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.

"Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established.

"And wishing, as is just, to impose a restraint, in this matter, also on printers, who now without restraint,--thinking, that is, that whatsoever they please is allowed them,--print, without the license of ecclesiastical superiors, the said books of sacred Scripture, and the notes and comments upon them of all persons indifferently, with the press ofttimes unnamed, often even fictitious, and what is more grievous still, without the author's name; and also keep for indiscriminate sale books of this kind printed elsewhere; (this Synod) ordains and decrees, that, henceforth, the sacred Scripture, and especially the said old and vulgate edition, be printed in the most correct manner possible; and that it shall not be lawful for any one to print, or cause to be printed, any books whatever, on sacred matters, without the name of the author; nor to sell them in future, or even to keep them, unless they shall have been first examined, and approved of, by the Ordinary; under pain of the anathema and fine imposed in a canon of the last Council of Lateran: and, if they be Regulars, besides this examination and approval, they shall be bound to obtain a license also from their own superiors, who shall have examined the books according to the form of their own statutes. As to those who lend, or circulate them in manuscript, without their having been first examined, and approved of, they shall be subjected to the same penalties as printers: and they who shall have them in their possession or shall read them, shall, unless they discover the authors, be themselves regarded as the authors. And the said approbation of books of this kind shall be given in writing; and for this end it shall appear authentically at the beginning of the book, whether the book be written, or printed; and all this, that is, both the approbation and the examination, shall be done gratis, that so what ought to be approved, may be approved, and what ought to be condemned, may be condemned.

-- 'Decree Concerning the Edition and the Use of the Sacred Books' -- Council of Trent

• You can't disagree with the Church's interpretation.
• You can't interpret the Bible for yourself.
• You can't print, sell, lend, or keep anything concerning 'sacred Scripture' (and especially a bible) without the bishop's examination and written approval.

[Between the Lines]

Should all read it and have a faithful translation, even then it cannot be the guide of man, because the private interpretation of the Bible is not infallible, but, on the contrary, most fallible. It is the source and fountain of all kinds of errors and heresies, and all kinds of blasphemous doctrines.

Let me see if I got this straight. Though "all Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16a) there are only a few who can discern it's meaning without infallibility ...

So our Divine Savior also has established His Supreme Court --- His Supreme Judge --- to give us the true meaning of the Scriptures, and to give us the true revelation and doctrines of the Word of Jesus.

... and only these few can tell us what it truly means even though it may contradict what we read of God's word with our own eyes least we fall into heresy.

Jesus, though he was not a member of the clergy, read and studied God's word for Himself. And He discerned for Himself what it meant. He was often in direct conflict in His understanding with the established clergy which claimed for themselves the God given right as the only ones who could discern God's word without err.

It would appear that this lesson from Jesus is in direct conflict with the sermon in this article. It shows that religious bodies can be as fallible as men. This sermon asks that I follow the word of only the clergy. But I have to ask in return "what did Jesus do?"

[InvisibleChurch]

God breathed only went from one person to print.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Instead Christ said, "Go and make disciples, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

He goes on to say, "...Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"

And those commands are (surprise!) found in the Bible!

:)

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Christ never said to His Apostles, "Go and write..."

"I was in the Spirit o­n the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book," - Revelation 1:11

"...and distribute them..."

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." - Mark 16:15

"...and let everyone judge for himself"

"The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so." - Acts 17

(hiya K!)

[connectthedots]

Act 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Appears as tho the believers were writing out copies as fast as their fingers would move, contrary to what some may say...

I don't buy into the RCC is the one true church nonsense at all; but publish does not always mean writing. Generally speaking, that is the interpretation today, but it wasn't necessarily so centuries ago.

[bornacatholic]

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

[bornacatholic]

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html

[bornacatholic]

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html

[bornacatholic]

LOL Touche, brother

[bornacatholic]

Well, Jesus is God so His ability is somewhat superior to yours. No offense

[bornacatholic]

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html

[torqemada]

Your snide remarks & petty nastiness is uncalled for. If you cannot engage in a free exchange & reasoned debate without spitting in the other person's eye with sentence you utter, it's probably best that you just sit this discussion out. As the saying goes, "Better to remain silent & be thought a fool, than to open your mouth & dispel all doubt."

[Iscool]

I agree...But, I believe it's reasonable to assume that many early Chrisians did copy the scriptures with what means they had available...

I just found it interesting that the bible mentions this in a few place so it must be significant, possibly to let us know that our bible history wasn't just passed on from one mouth to another...

It was recorded, even in it's earliest stages...

[ovrtaxt]

On the other hand John 6:40 simply says, [For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.] Nothing said about baptism.

This is true. The thief on the cross next to Jesus never had time to get baptized. It was faith in his Savior alone that saved him.

God is merciful.

[Iscool]

Aw, quit being a thin skinned sissy...I am not the issue and your feelings aren't either...Jesus and salvation are the issues...And He saves all kinds of critters...He saves sissies and He saves crude folks as well...

Just get on your knees (not necessary) and confess to Jesus that you are a sinner and ask Him to save you from your sins and eternal damnation ans you will be saved and are guaranteed a secure place in heaven...

You will then be filled with the Holy Spirit...

Then get wet if you want to, or don't...I did...I got dunked to show that I too, took part in the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus...Praise God...

[Kolokotronis]

" He goes on to say, "...Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"

And those commands are (surprise!) found in the Bible!"

Absolutely!!!! And then we have these:

Jn 21:25
2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 Cor 11:2; 1 Thess 2:13
Acts 2:42
2 Pet 3:16
2 Jn 1:12; 3 Jn 1:13-14
2 Pet 1:20-21
Acts 8:31; Heb 5:12

(kalh mera, file mou PM! :))