Posted on 01/29/2006 5:25:55 AM PST by NYer
Yours is a kind and a welcoming comment, and I want to recognize and honor that.
Through our Lord may we all come to greater unity and insight.
" Besides that baptism (christian wise) is a ceremonial burial of the "old man".. not the reality of the birth of the "new man"
Interesting. This in part is in accord with +John Chrysostomos in "On the Holy Spirit":
"The dispensation of our God and Saviour concerning man is a recall from the fall, and a return from the alienation caused by disobedience to close communion with God. This is the reason for the sojourn of Christ in the flesh, the pattern of life described in the Gospels, the sufferings, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection; so that the man who is being saved through imitation of Christ receives the old adoption. For perfection of life the imitation of Christ is necessary, not only in the example of gentleness, lowliness, and long suffering set us in His life, but also of His actual death. So Paul, the imitator of Christ, says, `being made conformable unto His death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.' How then are we made in the likeness of His death? In that we were buried with Him by baptism."
" Just look at me as your own little reclamation project. :>)"
Well, if it doesn't work, Padre, you're still welcome for "cafe and buklava"!
Well, the rendering of "born again" in 3:5 does seem to be exclusive to the old Vulgate and the translations derived from it. Nevertheless, the sense is the same.
As for what you are trying to get at with the distinction between those "born of the Spirit" and "begotten of the Spirit," I can't make any sense of it. It certainly isn't in 2 Cor. 4:18.
Men are "born of water and the Holy Spirit" in baptism, not at birth. The first birth is that of the corrupted seed of Adam, the second in the laver of regeneration, the washing of the water with the word, in which we are washed, sanctified, and justified (Cf. Titus 3:5; Eph. 5:26; 1 Cor. 5:11). This is the birth without which one can neither see nor enter the kingdom of God.
1 Erat autem homo ex pharisaeis, Nicodemus nomine, princeps Iudaeorum;
2 hic venit ad eum nocte et dixit ei: “ Rabbi, scimus quia a Deo venisti magister; nemo enim potest haec signa facere, quae tu facis, nisi fuerit Deus cum eo ”.
3 Respondit Iesus et dixit ei: “ Amen, amen dico tibi: Nisi quis natus fuerit desuper, non potest videre regnum Dei ”.
4 Dicit ad eum Nicodemus: “ Quomodo potest homo nasci, cum senex sit? Numquid potest in ventrem matris suae iterato introire et nasci? ”.
5 Respondit Iesus: “ Amen, amen dico tibi: Nisi quis natus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu, non potest introire in regnum Dei.
6 Quod natum est ex carne, caro est; et, quod natum est ex Spiritu, spiritus est.
7 Non mireris quia dixi tibi: Oportet vos nasci denuo.
8 Spiritus, ubi vult, spirat, et vocem eius audis, sed non scis unde veniat et quo vadat; sic est omnis, qui natus est ex Spiritu ”.
You don't have a source for doner kebap...with that tangy feta sauce, do you? :>)
Actually Holy Baptism does not only ritually signify the death of the old man and the rebirth of the new man, but actually effects it. +Paul says (Rom. 6):
"3 Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? 4 For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. 7 For he that is dead is justified from sin."
right..
"You don't have a source for doner kebap...with that tangy feta sauce, do you? :>)"
You mean souvlakia with tzadziki sauce? I, Padre, am the chief cook of such delicacies at our parish festival...and we don't use any of that store bought, massed produced skopethia (garbage) from the big Greek food wholesalers either; all homemade...even for you Americans! :)
Well....I don't think so. As you recall in John 17:11 Jesus is praying to God, asking Him to protect the Church in His (God's) own name. This was right before he was arrested after eating the Last Supper.....so I think the "Church of God" was fairly well established before the Book of Hebrews was written.
+John Chrysostomos also says, however, in his Baptismal Instructions:
"Are we only dying with the Master and are we only sharing in His sadness? Most of all, let me say that sharing the Master's death is no sadness. Only wait a little and you shall see yourself sharing in His benefits. 'For if we have died with Him,' says St. Paul, `we believe that we shall also live together with Him.' For in baptism there are both burial and resurrection together at the same time. He who is baptized puts off the old man, takes the new and rises up, `just as Christ has arisen through the glory of the Father.' Do you see how, again, St. Paul calls baptism a resurrection?"
In the West, +Ambrose of Milan puts it this way:
"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and-the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God"
True, my education of Catholicism goes about as far as Wikipedia. That's where that list came from.
I did not know that Catholics did foot washing. I was pleasantly surprised to find out that they did. So if foot washing is a sacrament of the Catholic Church, why wasn't it on the 'list of seven sacraments' then? Maybe it's just cooler to have seven instead of eight?
And the description of Confirmation is all good and everything, and it seems to fit with Acts 2 somewhat, but I didn't see anything about the outward evidence of speaking in other tongues and so forth. (Yes, I know the purpose of Spirit Baptism is to provide the Christian with the power to be a witness, or martyr, but there is always an outward, observable evidence of this event in Scripture. Usually tongues and/or prophecy.)
Really, I just threw the reference to the 'Baptism with the Holy Spirit' in there to see if the Catholics are as anti-charismatic as some other folks. Overall, the mention of the Holy Ghost seemed to be pretty well received. That's good.
The reference, though, is to the one written in Heaven.
I happen to know Charismatic Catholics.
John 3:16, [For God so loved the world that he gave his only Begotten Son].....even Jesus was not "born again" until his resurrection.
2 Corinthians 4:18 says "what is unseen is eternal"... like those born of the spirit.
Foot washing on Holy Thursday is not a sacrament. It's a ceremony part of that day during Holy Week.
Where & when is the next big parish festival?
I'm buying a ticket.
Thank you, I'll look through these to see if they are the one.
It was a series of letters to a young woman whom Fenelon was advising. I remember this copy having occasion comments, dates, and an opening bio of Fenelon.
I know they exist, but I don't personally know a single Catholic that actually takes their faith seriously- except on FR! Maybe because I'm in the south?
Consequently, I have limited knowledge of what actually takes place in Catholic circles. I did go to a funeral for a Catholic lady once. That's about it. For a short time, I went to some high Episcopal services. I was interested in the symbolism of the liturgy.
I do know that many people only consider water baptism and communion to be sacraments. Still others add foot washing to that list. I happen to think they're all holy, as long as they're done unto the Lord in faith and reverence. Otherwise, they're just dead rituals of no significance.
Oh, they exist in the South as well, just in pockets. One major one is near Birmingham, AL, in the area around EWTN's HQ.
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