Replies

You might note post 13 where Dion disagrees with Augustine on Original Sin. I happen to agree with Augustine on Original Sin. To me the follow text:

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

or....

Mat 5:44-45 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on {the} evil and {the} good, and sends rain on {the} righteous and {the} unrighteous.

or...

Mat 7:11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

To me these and many other verses means more than simply we have a lack of God's grace. Our Lord stated that men were evil. Who am I to disagree? I think to say that we simply "lack God's grace" is to minimize our fallen situation and not truthfully address our sinfulness.

BTW-Both Dion and Kolo have state this to be "Western" thinking as opposed to "Eastern" thinking. From as much research as I have so far done on this I would say the Reformed view is neither western nor eastern thinking but it is historical theocratic thinking coming from the Old Testament Jews. They always held that God was fully in control of their lives (see 1 Sam 3, Esther 6, Dan 4 or Job 42 for examples on this.)

All other thinking whether they be "western" or "eastern" thinking is Greek thinking, anthropocentric in nature, stemming from Greek philosophy. Man's free will is "Greek" philosophy and has no root in the Jewish theocentric thought process. It should be noted John Cassian was heavily into Greek philosophy. There may be subtle differences between western and eastern Greek philosophy which I have not yet traced down; however it is essentially built from the same foundation of man's will. The Reformed view is not based upon Greek philosophy; western or eastern.

From the Greek anthropocentric philosophy original sin and man's depravity is a falacy. But from a historical Jewish theocentric view original sin and man's depravity is fully recognized. Thus man cannot be "evil" for the Greek view but man is "evil" from the historical Jewish view.

The reason is the T.U.L.I.P. garden thinks Augustine is a Crypto-Calvinist

Augustine was no "Crypto-Calvinist". Rather, Augustine was a Proto-Calvinist -- that is, he correctly maintained the Orthodox Doctrine of the Christian Church long before it was utterly corrupted by the Papal Supremacists of Rome.

As I have previously said:

Given that the Eastern Orthodox Missionary Academy of Scottish Iona was Founded by Asia-Minor Greek Orthodox Predestinarians; and...
Given that the (Eastern Orthodox) Ecclesial Organization, (Eastern Orthodox) Baptismal and Infant-Baptismal Rites, and (Augustinian) Predestinarian Doctrines of Orthodox Iona were preserved for a thousand years throughout the long dark centuries of bitter Roman Catholic suppression and domination until eventually reinforced and re-established by Knoxian Scottish Calvinism; and...
Given that the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, that supreme Orthodox Martyr-Patriot Cyril Lukaris, did publish in 1629 a Confession of the Orthodox Faith which is almost-entirely acceptable to me as a High-Church Calvinist Protestant: Confessions of a Byzantine-Rite Calvinist. (Given his Confession, I am willing to submit to Lukaris' definition of the Father-Processional Filioque, the Covenantal Baptism of Infants, the Mystical Eucharist, and the Veneration of Icons; In Turn, you Eastern Orthodox would only have to accept our Western Congregational-Elected Presbyters as Genuine Bishops, according to our Western Protestant Custom)...

AT THE END OF THE DAY, it is the heretical Roman Catholic Papal Supremacists who are attempting a False Anti-Protestant Alliance with the Eastern Orthodox; Never mind the fact that important Patriarchal Confessions within Eastern Orthodoxy have acknowledged hard-core Augustinian Theology as being acceptable to the Orthodox, whereas NO Orthodox nor Protestant has ever accepted the foundationally-Romanistic Dogma of Papal Supremacy and Infallibility.

Whatever our disagreements (and here, we Magisterial Protestants are willing to appeal to Orthodox Patristics and Orthodox Patriarchs and Orthodox Tradition in defense of our Theology), we Calvinists and Orthodox do at least agree upon the God-Ordained Organization of the Church: the Conciliar Form of Church Government.

Whether an Orthodox Council presided over by an Ecumenical Patriarch, or a Presbyterian Assembly presided over by a General Moderator, at least the Orthodox and the Calvinist Churches have the Biblical Modesty to Obey the Biblical Form of Government for the Church:

Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote letters by them after this manner...

Against this Biblical Model is contrasted the Satanic Organization of the Church of Rome:

"The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls."

Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, #937

LUKE 4:5-7
And the Devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

Satan offered Jesus absolute, Totalitarian Power.

Jesus chose instead to establish a Conciliar Church.

Apparently, the Pope of Rome didn't like the deal, and decided instead that the whole "Absolute Power" thing sounded pretty cool.

Sorry, Rome.... while I may have my disagreements with the Eastern Orthodox as to their particular Theology (and not even so much disagreement at all, if Cyril Lukaris is my Ecumenical Patriarch), I think I'll tell the Papal Supremacists "Get thee behind me, Satan", and stick to the Conciliar Form of Church Government established by the Apostles and Jesus Christ.

Best, OP