To: bornacatholic; Dionysiusdecordealcis; Kolokotronis
You might note post 13 where Dion disagrees with Augustine on Original Sin. I happen to agree with Augustine on Original Sin. To me the follow text:
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
or....
Mat 5:44-45 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on {the} evil and {the} good, and sends rain on {the} righteous and {the} unrighteous.
or...
Mat 7:11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
To me these and many other verses means more than simply we have a lack of God's grace. Our Lord stated that men were
evil. Who am I to disagree? I think to say that we simply "lack God's grace" is to minimize our fallen situation and not truthfully address our sinfulness.
BTW-Both Dion and Kolo have state this to be "Western" thinking as opposed to "Eastern" thinking. From as much research as I have so far done on this I would say the Reformed view is neither western nor eastern thinking but it is historical theocratic thinking coming from the Old Testament Jews. They always held that God was fully in control of their lives (see 1 Sam 3, Esther 6, Dan 4 or Job 42 for examples on this.)
All other thinking whether they be "western" or "eastern" thinking is Greek thinking, anthropocentric in nature, stemming from Greek philosophy. Man's free will is "Greek" philosophy and has no root in the Jewish theocentric thought process. It should be noted John Cassian was heavily into Greek philosophy. There may be subtle differences between western and eastern Greek philosophy which I have not yet traced down; however it is essentially built from the same foundation of man's will. The Reformed view is not based upon Greek philosophy; western or eastern.
From the Greek anthropocentric philosophy original sin and man's depravity is a falacy. But from a historical Jewish theocentric view original sin and man's depravity is fully recognized. Thus man cannot be "evil" for the Greek view but man is "evil" from the historical Jewish view.
22 posted on
01/18/2006 6:45:51 AM PST by
HarleyD
(Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
To: HarleyD
the Reformed view is neither western nor eastern thinking but it is historical theocratic thinking coming from the Old Testament Jews. They always held that God was fully in control of their lives
Ecclus. 14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel. (Free Will) 15 He added his commandments and precepts.
16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. 17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. (Free Will) 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose ( Free Will) shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.
21 He hath commanded no man to do wickedly, and he hath given no man license to sin:
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