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To: bornacatholic; Dionysiusdecordealcis; Kolokotronis
You might note post 13 where Dion disagrees with Augustine on Original Sin. I happen to agree with Augustine on Original Sin. To me the follow text:

or....

or...

To me these and many other verses means more than simply we have a lack of God's grace. Our Lord stated that men were evil. Who am I to disagree? I think to say that we simply "lack God's grace" is to minimize our fallen situation and not truthfully address our sinfulness.

BTW-Both Dion and Kolo have state this to be "Western" thinking as opposed to "Eastern" thinking. From as much research as I have so far done on this I would say the Reformed view is neither western nor eastern thinking but it is historical theocratic thinking coming from the Old Testament Jews. They always held that God was fully in control of their lives (see 1 Sam 3, Esther 6, Dan 4 or Job 42 for examples on this.)

All other thinking whether they be "western" or "eastern" thinking is Greek thinking, anthropocentric in nature, stemming from Greek philosophy. Man's free will is "Greek" philosophy and has no root in the Jewish theocentric thought process. It should be noted John Cassian was heavily into Greek philosophy. There may be subtle differences between western and eastern Greek philosophy which I have not yet traced down; however it is essentially built from the same foundation of man's will. The Reformed view is not based upon Greek philosophy; western or eastern.

From the Greek anthropocentric philosophy original sin and man's depravity is a falacy. But from a historical Jewish theocentric view original sin and man's depravity is fully recognized. Thus man cannot be "evil" for the Greek view but man is "evil" from the historical Jewish view.

22 posted on 01/18/2006 6:45:51 AM PST by HarleyD (Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on)
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To: HarleyD
the Reformed view is neither western nor eastern thinking but it is historical theocratic thinking coming from the Old Testament Jews. They always held that God was fully in control of their lives

Ecclus. 14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel. (Free Will) 15 He added his commandments and precepts.

16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. 17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. (Free Will) 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose ( Free Will) shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.

21 He hath commanded no man to do wickedly, and he hath given no man license to sin:

47 posted on 01/18/2006 3:22:41 PM PST by bornacatholic
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