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John Cassian’s Response to Augustinianism
www.monergism.com ^ | Unknown | E. A. Costa

Posted on 01/17/2006 6:56:20 AM PST by HarleyD

Introduction

John Cassian was a zealous monk whose theology (unfortunately, one might say) has been massively influential on the church’s understanding of the whole of the gospel since the fifth century. His particular theology (commonly known as semi-Pelagianism), which was developed largely in response to Augustine’s doctrines of predestination, grace, and free will, has been adopted by many Christians—academics, clergy and lay people alike—throughout the centuries.Two major influences were at work in Cassian’s life and teachings. First, Greek neo-platonic philosophical theology shaped his understanding of anthropology in a way that prevented him from being able to engage Augustine on the level that he should have. And second, his intense devotion to the ascetic chastity of the monastery created a platform upon which his theology could develop, yet in a way that was almost entirely sub-biblical. The result of Cassian’s theological contributions to the church has been the obscuring of the God of the Bible in the vision of His people.

Cassian and His Work

Cassianus was born (probably in Provence) around 360 A.D., and most likely assumed the name “Iohannes” (John) at his baptism or admittance to the monastic life. [1] He died in Massilia of Gaul (present-day Marseilles, France), where he had spent his most productive years as a monk, in 435. [2] His birthplace is uncertain, and little is known about his parents, education, or childhood, primarily because of his own silence regarding these in his writings.

It is known, however, that he had a rigorous education, as evidenced by his fluent bilingualism and familiarity with church fathers. Western-born, Latin was probably his native tongue; yet much of his thought is influenced by Greek writers, and much of his life was spent in the East, where he derived his perspective on monasticism. “[H]is entire achievement was built on” his bilingualism, [3] as it offered him access to all major writers, and undoubtedly enabled him to address any major audience. Much exposure to Greek philosophical theology, together with his zeal for ascetic chastity, would figure prominently in Cassian’s response to Augustine, as shall be discussed later.

Cassian spent many years as a monk with his companion, Germanus, in Bethlehem of Palestine and various places in Egypt with the desert fathers before they went to Constantinople. There Cassian studied under Bishop Chrysostom, until the teacher was banished from Constantinople. Cassian and Germanus then carried a petition on his behalf from the clergy of Constantinople to Pope Innocent in Rome, where Cassian made the acquaintance of one Archdeacon Leo, later to become Pope Leo the Great. [4] Eventually Cassian removed to Massilia, where monastic life had become increasingly popular during more recent years, in order to develop monasticism—he established two new monasteries—and to write. [5]

In Massilia Cassian, now an abbot, wrote his three major works: 1) his Institutes (De Institutis Coenobiorum et de Octo Principalium Vitiorum Remediis Libri XII), which detail rules for the monastic life; 2) his Conferences (Collationes XXIV), which record conversations with abbots during his time in Egypt; [6] and 3) On the Incarnation against Nestorius (De Incarnatione Domini contra Nestorium), a work of seven books written at the request of Pope Leo. [7] In this last writing Cassian is the first to point out similarities between Nestorianism and Pelagianism. Of certain Nestorians he writes, “in saying that Jesus Christ lived as a mere man without any stain of sin, they actually went so far as to declare that men could also be without sin if they liked.” [8] The high estimation of man’s sufficiency and strength of will that is pervasive in Pelagian writings is applied to the Jesus of Nestorianism, who was supposed to have overcome sin by the sheer power of His merely human will, becoming Christ only at His baptism. [9] This section of De Incarnatione clearly indicates Cassian’s desire to distance himself from “the teaching or rather the evil deeds of Pelagius.” [10]

The ‘Problem’ of Augustinianism

Augustine’s influence and authority had been growing since the official defeat of Pelagianism, which was condemned in 418 at the 16th Council of Carthage. [11] The ‘initial spark’ was provided for the Cassian controversy when one of Augustine’s letters, concerning predestination and prevenient (and therefore irresistible) grace, came into the possession of monks at Adrumetum. Dispute arose among them over these doctrines, and they eventually sent a dispatch to Hippo to ask Augustine about the fuller meaning of his writings. [12] So Augustine wrote De Gratia et Libero Arbitrii (On Grace and Free Will) and De Correptione et Gratia (On Rebuke and Grace) in 426, with the hope of clarifying the matter. [13]

Of course, though this may have settled the matter for the monks at Adrumetum, the doctrines were not so easily incorporated into the life of thought at Massilia. The monks there, of whom Cassian can be considered chief, agreed with Augustine on many issues—even against Pelagianism. But they distrusted his teachings on predestination, grace and free will as a result of his letters to the monks at Adrumetum. [14] “They said that what Augustine taught as to the calling of God’s elect according to His own purpose was tantamount to fatalism, was contrary to the teaching of the fathers and the true Church doctrine, and, even if true, should not be preached, because of its tendency to drive men into indifference or despair.” [15]

Augustine taught that original sin had left humanity in a state of death (not just weakness), which necessitated the symmetrical actual giving of life in salvation by God. The will is alive and free, but its only function is to manifest the desire of a corrupt heart in a choice. So, in a sense, the will is utterly bound to sin, since men always and without exception love the darkness rather than the light, and this is death for them. The life came as God—of His own good pleasure, not motivated by anything He saw in sinners—regenerated the hearts of sinners, causing them to love God more than sin, by His Spirit (c.f. Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:22-28; Jer. 31:33-34; 32:38-41; 1 John 4:19). “This grace, therefore, which is hiddenly bestowed in human hearts by the Divine gift, is rejected by no hard heart, because it is given for the sake of first taking away the hardness of the heart.” [16] Augustine explained that God did this for some and not for others by referring to Romans 9, where God says that He is willing to exert His wrath, yet has patience in order to display the glory of His grace toward His elect. [17] These are the doctrines of predestination, grace and free will that Cassian felt jeopardized important truth about God and humanity. And though Augustine wrote convincing treatises on these doctrines in response to the complaint of the Massilians (De Praedestinatione Sanctorum and De Dono Perseverantiae; On the Predestination of the Saints and On the Gift of Perseverance [18] ), they would not be persuaded, and continued in their efforts to correct the doctrines they perceived as a threat to the life of the church.

Cassian’s ‘Solution’ Examined

Most of Cassian’s relevant arguments are laid out in the 13th book of his Conferences, which is a record of a conversation with Abbot Chaeremon entitled “On the Protection of God,” though he does touch upon the same doctrines, to lesser extents, in several other places. Methodologically, it must be said—to his commendation—that he uses Scripture with great frequency. For Cassian, and others in opposition to strong Augustinianism, it seems there were two factors of primary concern in the debate. First, being a monk whose daily life consisted of disciplined asceticism for the sake of chastity (moral purity), Cassian feared that Augustine’s doctrines would give an overwhelming sense of powerlessness and despondence in such pursuits. This, in turn, might lead to ethical irresponsibility (the lack of the feeling of accountability). [19]

It is of utmost importance to note that Cassian “positions his analyses of grace and free will within his discussions of chastity.” [20] The crucial issue for him was the empowerment for the pursuit of holiness. So great was his concern for chastity, in fact, that earlier in his life Cassian gave up the solitary life of an Anchorite monk in Egypt for that of a Coenobite in community with other monks, “in order that he might have the opportunity of practicing the virtues of obedience and subjection, which seemed out of the reach of the solitary.” [21] Quite unlike Pelagius, however, Cassian insisted that divine grace was absolutely necessary for spiritual progress. “How foolish and wicked then it is to attribute any good action to our own diligence and not to God’s grace and assistance, is clearly shown by the Lord’s saying, which lays down that no one can show forth the fruits of the Spirit without His inspiration and co-operation.” [22] Instead, he sought some middle ground of cooperation between man’s willful initiative and God’s enabling grace (libero arbitrio semper co-operatur).

In order to maintain his position that man must be capable of some motion toward God, he proposed that the will was not dead in sin. Instead, the free will was only severely weakened (infirmitas liberi arbitrii) as a result of the fall. Man was indeed capable of generating a small spark of initiative toward the good by the power of his own will, which must be then strengthened and aided by God to produce any actual good. Having a decidedly Eastern anthropology, it is understandable that Cassian would be more open to “natural possibility” than the Western Augustine. [23] Strangely enough, Cassian saw examples in Scripture of both monergistic (i.e. Matthew and Paul) and synergistic (i.e. Zacchaeus) beginnings of faith without any apparent difficulty. This is interesting, since, as R. C. Sproul observes, “The difference between Augustine and Cassian is the difference between monergism and synergism at the beginning of salvation.” [24] Nevertheless, Cassian was able to write, “when He sees in us some beginnings of a good will, He at once enlightens it and strengthens it and urges it on towards salvation, increasing that which He Himself implanted or which He sees to have arisen from our own efforts.” [25] This kind of assertion is common in his Conferences, and betrays his lack of understanding, at some level, of the issues at hand.

Second, and to a lesser degree, Cassian was concerned that the Augustinian view of particular (electing) grace stood in blatant opposition to the “clear” biblical truth of the universal availability of salvation. [26] He saw God’s love being extended to all in the universal offering of salvation, and could not stand the idea that God’s love would be so arbitrarily selective. “For if He willeth not that one of His little ones should perish, how can we imagine without grievous blasphemy that He does not generally will all men, but only some instead of all to be saved?” [27]

As a result, Cassian’s theology of God’s love required something of a fair chance for all people. If God really loved people (in the way Cassian thought), He would not permit the unfairness of a completely disabled will while demanding moral perfection. So original sin could not really have had the effect that Augustine claimed. Concordantly, prevenient grace would really be quite unnecessary, if people had the ability to initiate their own faith. And if prevenient grace were not a reality, then neither would be an Augustinian understanding of predestination. If people could really turn themselves toward God by their own will (as they must be able to do, if God is really fair and wants all to be saved), then God would only have to see (or foresee) who would create in themselves the spark of faith, and predestine them to eternal life on that basis.

Cassian’s ‘Solution’ Refuted

Having ascertained Cassian’s main reasons for disagreeing with Augustine in these matters, a few presuppositions or foundations of his perspective become evident which warrant critique. First, it is most apparent from his great concern for the advance of disciplined chastity that Cassian’s view of salvation is more sanctification-oriented than justification- or reconciliation-oriented. Whereas Augustine is generally arguing for a specific soteriological position (i.e., who makes the first move to restore relationship between God and men?), Cassian seems not to be able to think in the same category. Columba Stewart attributes this to the fact that Western skills were honed by the Pelagian controversy, while Cassian—being an Eastern thinker—has simply not been so influenced. [28] Thinking so much as he does about chastity, he almost seems to treat God as a means to the end of the perfection of holiness. This is a major fault, as it fosters a fundamentally more anthropocentric view of salvation than theocentric.

Second, and closely related to the first, is the weak view of sin and grace in Cassian. Sin for him seems to be only a violation of command and conscience. For Augustine, and in Scripture, the essence of sin is more than this—it is a rejection of the supremacy of the glory of God for delight in things of infinitely less worth… and therefore much more dishonoring to God. Accordingly, Cassian’s view of grace is more Pelagian than Augustinian. For him grace is merely an agent of enabling unto holiness (seeing Christ more as an instructor than a savior). He would likely have a low view of the substitutionary atonement of Christ.

Third, there seems to be in Cassian the attempt to maintain some level of autonomy from God in the process of salvation. This is perhaps the point where Augustine sees Cassianism “as necessarily implying the basal idea of Pelagianism,” [29] thereby referring to it as “semi-Pelagianism.” Indeed, prior to regeneration we are all born Pelagians, [30] at our religious “best” hoping to commend ourselves to God by some means other than Christ and the total reliance upon the sovereign grace of God.

Fourth, and more commonly ignored among historical and systematic theologians than the other points, is the pernicious error of an unexamined, confused, unbiblical anthropology. It is obvious from Cassian’s Conferences that he sees the will as self-moved, self-initiated, and able to incline itself (albeit only slightly and weakly) toward the good. Also, he muddles the functions of the faculties of the soul in various places, not demonstrating any clear understanding of the will as a function of the heart, or of the desires as determining the direction of the will. For him, a man’s being and doing are reversed from the biblical perspective: “for each man must incline to one side or the other in accordance with the character of his actions.”

The Official Outcome

Prosper of Aquitaine, lay friend of Augustine, took up the defense of monergism against Cassian’s synergism from the beginning. He had alerted Augustine to the trouble in Massilia, motivating the bishop to write the two last works of his life against semi-Pelagianism (De Praedestinatione Sanctorum and De Dono Perseverantiae). And shortly after Augustine’s death he, with his (otherwise unknown) companion, Hilary, petitioned Pope Celestine to condemn Cassian’s teachings. However, they encountered difficulty in

In 432 Prosper wrote Contra Collatorem (Against the Author of the Conferences) as he saw Cassianism spreading in Gaul, expressing the hope that Pope Sixtus would condemn the teachings. [32] In this work he focuses on Cassian’s Eastern tendencies as detrimental to a right understanding of the human will.

Semi-Pelagianism experienced some small official successes in Gaul at the Synods of Arles and Lyons in 472, but in 496 “Pope Gelasius I sanctioned the writings of Augustine and Prosper and condemned those of Cassian….” [33] Eventually, at the Council of Arausiacum (Orange: 529) semi-Pelagianism was officially condemned, and the church adopted a mostly-Augustinian stance. [34]

The Abiding Influence

Tragically for the church, Augustinianism was being softened by the bishop’s successors before semi-Pelagianism was even officially condemned. [35] It was not held to strongly enough for the fundamental tenets of Augustine’s theology to take deeper root in the church. The resulting influence of Cassian has been widespread and long lasting. For, while it is true that the Council of Orange was a triumph over the “semi-Pelagian denial of the necessity of prevenient grace for salvation,” Robert L. Reymond observes,

And so the more complete majesty of God’s work in saving a people for Himself out of sin has gone through the centuries half-veiled, until the Day when the last vestiges of our self-reliance are stripped away, and all the earth trembles at the total sovereignty of the God whose pleasure it was to save some, sola gratia.

[1] Edgar C. S. Gibson, preface to The Works of John Cassian, by John Cassian, trans. Edgar C. S. Gibson, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2nd ser., vol. 11, ed. Philip Schaff, accessed through The Master Christian Library, ver. 8 (Rio, WI: AGES Software, Inc., 2000), 375. [2] The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1954), s.v. “Cassianus Johannus,” http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php?authorID=schaff&bookID=encyc02&page=435&view= [3] Columba Stewart, Cassian the Monk, Oxford Studies in Historical Theology (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1998), 5. [4] Gibson, 383. [5] Stewart, 5. [6] The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1908 ed., s.v. “John Cassian,” http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03404a.htm [7] Gibson, 383. [8] John Cassian, On the Incarnation against Nestorius, in The Works of John Cassian, trans. with preface Edgar C. S. Gibson, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2nd ser., vol. 11, ed. Philip Schaff, accessed through The Master Christian Library, ver. 8 (Rio, WI: AGES Software, Inc., 2000), 1:3. [9] Gibson., 387. [10] Cassian., Against Nestorius, 1:4. [11] Robert L. Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, 2d ed. rev. & updated (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1998), 468-9. [12] B. B. Warfield, introduction to Saint Augustine’s Anti-Pelagian Works, by St. Augustine, trans. Peter Holmes & Robert Ernest Wallis, rev. B. B. Warfield, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 1st ser., vol. 5, ed. Philip Schaff, accessed through The Master Christian Library, ver. 8 (Rio, WI: AGES Software, Inc., 2000), 89-90. [13] Gibson, 388. [14] Ibid., 389. [15] Warfield, 97-8. [16] St. Augustine, The Predestination of the Saints, in Saint Augustine’s Anti-Pelagian Works, by St. Augustine, trans. Peter Holmes & Robert Ernest Wallis, rev. with intro. B. B. Warfield, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 1st ser., vol. 5, ed. Philip Schaff, accessed through The Master Christian Library, ver. 8 (Rio, WI: AGES Software, Inc., 2000), ch. 13, emphasis mine. [17] Ibid., ch. 14. See Rom. 9:22-23. For an excellent treatment of the righteousness of God in His sovereign election based on this passage, see John Piper, The Justification of God: An Exegetical & Theological Study of Romans 9:1-23, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1993), especially pp. 183-216. [18] Gibson, 389 [19] Earle E. Cairns, Christianity through the Centuries, 3rd ed. rev. & expanded (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), 132. [20] Stewart, 76. [21] Gibson, 378. [22] Cassian, The Conferences of John Cassian, in The Works of John Cassian, 3:16. [23] Stewart, 19. [24] R. C. Sproul, Willing to Believe (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1997), 73. [25] Cassian, Conferences, 13:8. [26] Sproul, 70. [27] Cassian, Conferences, 13:7. [28] Stewart, 78. [29] Warfield, 93. [30] Reymond, 469. [31] Stewart, 20-21. [32] Gibson, 390-391. [33] Sproul, 75. [34] J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, rev. ed. (San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1978), 371-2. [35] Sproul, 75. [36] Reymond, 469


TOPICS: History; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: augustine; cassian; easternorthodox; semipelagianism
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To: conservonator
Please show me the scripture that CLEARLY says that Christ made him the pope, a scripture that says HE thought HE was the "rock" that the church was built on and that the other apostles believed him to the the infallible head of the church

That is just 3 scriptures that I am requesting, and one more thing when is the firs\t time that Peter is referred to as the "Bishop of Rome in any historical or church documents?

201 posted on 01/24/2006 12:43:57 PM PST by RnMomof7 ("Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: jude24
Taking those accounts at face -value would not be much different than using Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 or Ann Coulter's screeds as source materials for modern American politics.

I'm glad you are grateful to those who came before and made a land like America possible.

202 posted on 01/24/2006 12:49:26 PM PST by ksen ("For an omniscient and omnipotent God, there are no Plan B's" - Frumanchu)
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To: RnMomof7
Morning Kevin!

Morning!......er, afternoon! ;^)

203 posted on 01/24/2006 12:52:19 PM PST by ksen ("For an omniscient and omnipotent God, there are no Plan B's" - Frumanchu)
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To: RnMomof7
WHERE was the "humor" you are a lousy liar Jude, you intended that to make me look like a bigot and fool

Comparing the Pope with the King of Sodom was not exactly open-minded. I owe no apology in that regard.

I owe an apology for injecting the attempted joke about the sodomites. That was out of line.

204 posted on 01/24/2006 12:56:53 PM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Campion; ksen
"...the antecedant is the schism, not the Reformation."

The "schism" that you're referring to is implied to be the Catholic/Reformation schism. It isn't the Catholic/Orthodox schism or the Catholic/SSPX schism. Assuming you mean Catholic/Reformation schism then your statement would still read:

It changes nothing. You’re only agreeing there are a “lot of warts” within Reformed theology and you state the schism is poisonous to both sides (Reform included). You’re implications are 1) that there is something wrong with “Reformed theology” and 2) that it was poisonous from the beginning-not a reformation of doctrine. Of course you have not provided an answer to my question as to what were the “warts” but it is apparent you’re ecumenicalism only extends so far.

BTW-For the most part I read just fine. I certainly make a comfortable living at it. Perhaps I just overpaid.

205 posted on 01/24/2006 12:57:19 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: RnMomof7
When Christ gave him the keys, He gave peter authority when He gave Peter a particular commission in John, He reaffirmed the position. When Peter writes from Babylon he is writing from Rome. When Peter told the apostles assembled in Acts that there was no need to "..by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? " he was preaching infallible dogma. And note too that no one disputed him when he said "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe." He has a particular calling and a particular authority conferred to him by Christ and recognized by the Apostles. He didn't need to run around telling everyone I'm the pope!", they all knew he was chosen to lead from the foundation.

Clement and Irenaeus both refer to Peters Roman ministry. His successor Linus, is mentioned by Paul and is noted to be Peters successor by Irenaeus.

Try not to get hung up on the word "Pope", it's the office that matters, not the title we use to describe it.

206 posted on 01/24/2006 1:01:03 PM PST by conservonator (Pray for those suffering)
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To: HarleyD; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Of course you have not provided an answer to my question as to what were the “warts”

I didn't need to. That language was borrowed from OP's previous post. The warts were in our history, not theology. That was not clear; that I do admit.

207 posted on 01/24/2006 1:04:12 PM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: jude24; RnMomof7; HarleyD; ksen; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Ann Coulter's screeds...

You don't seem to like anybody, Jude.

To compare "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" with Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" is crude and despicable.

Foxe's account of Christians who were slaughtered for declaring that salvation is by God's grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone via Scripture alone is one of the few books that actually unites most Protestants.

Pity you disparage the blood of those who died so you might preach the word.

208 posted on 01/24/2006 1:07:18 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (an ambassador in bonds)
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To: jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7; ksen
Taking those accounts at face -value would not be much different than using Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 or Ann Coulter's screeds as source materials for modern American politics.

Tell it to the Hugonauts.

209 posted on 01/24/2006 1:44:53 PM PST by Gamecock (..ours is a trivial age, and the church has been deeply affected by this pervasive triviality. JMB)
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To: Gamecock
Tell it to the Hugonauts.

Tell it to those slaughtered in the Peasant's Revolt or by Cromwell's minions.

210 posted on 01/24/2006 1:49:20 PM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: jude24

And that has more face value to you?

You have Freepmail. Feel free to post it, just like you threaten to do on your homepage.


211 posted on 01/24/2006 1:54:26 PM PST by Gamecock (..ours is a trivial age, and the church has been deeply affected by this pervasive triviality. JMB)
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To: Diamond
If Jesus also meant by that second clause to refer to Simon Peter he could have said "epi tauto to petro" (masculine gender in the dative case) "on this petros I will build".

That would have been bad Greek, though. (Not that I think he was speaking Greek; I don't. But if he had been ...)

"Petra" is the Greek word for "rock"; it has feminine gender. If you're familiar with a strongly gendered language, like German, Latin, or Greek, you don't just go around randomly changing genders of words for effect.

Unless, that is, you're adapting that word to be the proper name of someone of the "wrong" gender -- really inventing a neologism -- when you have to do exactly that.

And then there is the problem of why the feminine petra is always used in the Scriptures to refer to Christ, but never the masculine petros, which is only used to refer to Peter.

That's not a "problem" at all, as I've already explained. IF Christ were going to be named "Rock," the word would have to be "Petros". However, if he's going to be merely compared to a rock, or described as a rock, the word would be "petra".

This whole play-on-words theory has been rejected solidly by many Protestant exegetes; you'll find the citations in the book Jesus, Peter, and the Keys.

212 posted on 01/24/2006 3:17:56 PM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: jude24; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7

Divisions and separations are most objectionable in religion. They weaken the cause of true Christianity ...But before we blame people for them, we must be careful that we lay the blame where it is deserved. False doctrine and heresy are even worse than schism. If people separate themselves from teaching that is positively false and unscriptural, they ought to be praised rather than reproved. In such cases separation is a virtue and not a sin.

J.C. RYLE


213 posted on 01/24/2006 5:26:08 PM PST by HarleyD (Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way? - Pro 20:24)
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To: RnMomof7
Name the date that Peter was first referred to as Pope

I don't know the date. It is a linguistic question.

which is it Rock or Satan?

In Matthew 16:23 Christ is addressing Satan, not Peter. When Peter suggested that Christ forbids His Passion from happening, unknowingly he repeated the temptation of Christ to become a temporal ruler by Satan, and Christ rebuked Satan once more. It is clear that He continued to love Peter as He charged him with the stewardship of the sheep later. Peter's proneness to error prior to Christ's resurrection, combined with his unflinching recognition of Christ the Son of God is the reason Peter was chosen to be the foundation of the Church, which is also infallibly lead by fallible men.

Such silence is deafening

What silence? I just gave you scriptural and patristic references from early 1 century in my 175.

214 posted on 01/24/2006 8:07:24 PM PST by annalex
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To: Diamond
Petros was apparently never used in Greek before its appearance in the New Testament

This is not surprising as the habit to name people after Christian saints would not possibly precede Christianity

you still have a problem with that little word translated “this”, which also matches the Greek feminine "petra". If Jesus also meant by that second clause to refer to Simon Peter he could have said "epi tauto to petro" (masculine gender in the dative case) "on this petros I will build". But what he said was "Epi taute te petra", using petra, a different Greek word;

But there was no common noun "petros". "Epi tauto to petro" is simply gibberish akin to me all of a sudden referring to you as "Diamanda" and "she". "Petros" is a brand new noun, a proper one, designating Simon and him alone. Sinc ethe Church was not going to be Simon's new hat on top of his head, the only proper way to express the pun that Christ invented on the spot is to use the actual grammatical word "petra" and properly matching feminine pronoun "taute"

***

I am in a hurry and if you wish can address the grievance about papacy separately. My objection is to using this, to put it mildly, bizarre linguistical ploy to reinvent the Gospel; we are prefectly well equipped with the gospel that is to discuss ecclesiology.

215 posted on 01/24/2006 8:17:59 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; RnMomof7
Peter's proneness to error prior to Christ's resurrection, combined with his unflinching recognition of Christ the Son of God is the reason Peter was chosen to be the foundation of the Church, which is also infallibly lead by fallible men.

Jesus sure is lucky Peter decided to follow Him.

216 posted on 01/25/2006 3:19:25 AM PST by ksen ("For an omniscient and omnipotent God, there are no Plan B's" - Frumanchu)
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To: jude24; Dr. Eckleburg; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Campion; ksen
Comparing the Pope with the King of Sodom was not exactly open-minded. I owe no apology in that regard.

I thought you SAID were joking in that post to me...was that an untruth too?

Do you have a hard time following sermons at church? I gave Abrams unwillingness to take booty as an example of unequal yoking. That was before Gods judgment on Sodom, scripture does not tell us the King of Sodom was a sodomite, therefore I could not have been implying that could I? Unlike some in your acquaintance ( and you apparently) I do not make up doctrine or beliefs from the silence of scripture. I will say that future events do show that Abram was very discerning

I owe an apology for injecting the attempted joke about the sodomites. That was out of line.

And what was that joke anyway? May I can find humor in it if you are specific.

Jude are you a Calvinist?

217 posted on 01/25/2006 11:31:23 AM PST by RnMomof7 ("Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: ksen

You are lucky.


218 posted on 01/25/2006 11:35:21 AM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
Name the date that Peter was first referred to as Pope I don't know the date. It is a linguistic question.

Ok when was the earliest date of him being called the "Bishop of Rome?

In Matthew 16:23 Christ is addressing Satan, not Peter. When Peter suggested that Christ forbids His Passion from happening, unknowingly he repeated the temptation of Christ to become a temporal ruler by Satan, and Christ rebuked Satan once more. It is clear that He continued to love Peter as He charged him with the stewardship of the sheep later. Peter's proneness to error prior to Christ's resurrection, combined with his unflinching recognition of Christ the Son of God is the reason Peter was chosen to be the foundation of the Church, which is also infallibly lead by fallible men.

Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Satan favors the things of man?

Remember that was the man Christ had already made the pope ( by your reading) ..kinnda rules out infallibility in matters of faith huh ?

219 posted on 01/25/2006 11:53:56 AM PST by RnMomof7 ("Sola Scriptura,Sola Christus,Sola Gratia,Sola Fide,Soli Deo Gloria)
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To: Diamond; kosta50; OrthodoxPresbyterian
if the text were to apply exclusively to Peter, and added together with all the superlatives and firsts applied to Peter by Scripture and by the Fathers, it does not follow that these things necessarily apply exclusively to the bishops of Rome. Absent any demonstration in context that such prerogatives were applied in the early church's thinking to the bishop of Rome alone as the sole, unique successor of Peter, such an assumption is completely unwarranted.

The texts, for example, that the Catholic answers articles refer to (see my 175) self-evidently refer to the person of St. Peter and not to some collegium. Here Christ promises to pray for St. Peter's success

But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren. (Luke 22:32)

and here St. Peter promises us that his office be handed down in perpetuity

13 But I think it meet as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance. 14 Being assured that the laying away of this my tabernacle is at hand, according as our Lord Jesus Christ also hath signified to me. 15 And I will endeavour, that you frequently have after my decease, whereby you may keep a memory of these things. (2 Peter 1)

Now, the only model of perpetuating the office is by tying it to a geographical location and establishimg a method of succession. There is never a suggestion anywhere that Rome should have several bishops. So a pope is a pope, various collegia that exist in the governance of the Church notwithstanding. Now is Rome necessarily and forever the city where Peter's successor resides? No, it is not, and in fact, it is presently not in Rome but in the Vatican. If an asteroid strikes Rome quite conceivably the papacy will move, perhaps, to Cicero, Ill. as Walker Percy playfully suggested.

It is also a strawman that the governance of the Church is "papal supremacy". The papal infallibility only works in union with the college of bishops. The Pentecost established the Church as a conciliar organization lead by Peter as the chief pastor who alone has the power to bind and loose, while the pastoral duties to evangelize were given all the bishops without distinction. The pope is, of course, elected and not appointed by the predecessor. The doctrine moves from council to council. Protestantism was condemned by a council, -- not by a pope acting on his own, and following prolonged negotiations and discussion. Ideally, we need ecumenical councils which we cannot assemble because of the separation of the Orthodox. We get by with Catholic councils from necessity, not by design. The Catholic Church in the East operates in significant autonomy from Rome. Papal authority is felt, of course, in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, but that is because the heresies of the modern age, -- Protestantism and the 20 century moral relativism -- all originated and are sustained nearly exclusively in the West. Serious Catholics understand that striong papacy is a temporal necessity in the West, and in fact we want it become stronger. But it is abundantly clear to all that the role of the papacy in the universal Church cannot be modeled after the Latin Rite and needs to be more conciliar, if unity is to be reached.

220 posted on 01/25/2006 12:20:43 PM PST by annalex
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