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1 posted on 01/16/2006 6:00:25 AM PST by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...

Part 2 will be posted this evening.


2 posted on 01/16/2006 6:01:19 AM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: NYer
Q: And, in this context, what is the Christian doctrine of salvation?

Morali: The Christian doctrine of salvation is very clear. To explain it, I would refer to two texts of the magisterium: The first is an address of Pius IX on the occasion of the consistory that took place on December 8, 1854, on the occasion of the solemn proclamation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The Pope said that those who do not know the true religion, when their ignorance is invincible, are not culpable before the eyes of God.

Why not just go straight to the WORD? John 3:16 would be a good place to start! Why quote something a Pope said that has absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation?

This is why I ask these questions, because when something in scripture is clear as a bell, you have all this hierarchy making statements that make absolutely no sense, or directly contradict scripture...

3 posted on 01/16/2006 6:24:06 AM PST by sirchtruth (Words Mean Things...)
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To: NYer

O, ne Zot! Not this again!


5 posted on 01/16/2006 6:31:36 AM PST by Tax-chick (D-minus-8.)
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To: NYer

TO understand this, try this exercise. Presuppose that the message is this:

Heaven is not a reward for living a perfect life, but rather hell is the punishment for not working for God.

Therefore, if someone could NOT work for God (meaning it was impossible for them to work for God), they should not be punished with Hell.

Now, re-read the article, and see if everything pronounced makes sense. If so, it is probably what they were trying to say.

On the other hand, the bible indicates clearly what it takes to be "saved", and it has nothing to do with working for God, or having the ability to do so or not.

If one starts with the supposition that all humans are doomed to hell because of original sin, then hell is not punishment for not believing God, but rather for being born.

And Heaven is not the default state of man, but rather the place impossible to attain without devine intervention. And that intervention is not a right of man, but rather a gift of God.

And a gift is not earned, nor deserved, nor something you are entitled to. And if you never hear of the gift, there is no "special circumstance" that entitles you to the gift.

This does not mean that a person who it seems has an impossible task learning of God cannot be saved -- God could certainly provide a saving faith to any creature on the face of the earth -- he is after all all-powerful. But that would still be an act of God providing the gift, not an entitlement.

Suppose it was the case that everybody who doesn't have a chance for saving faith was automatically saved. Suppose also that salvation is an eternity in heaven, vs an eternity in hell, and that hell is much worse, and heaven much better, than anything that happens in this life.

Why, in that instance, wouldn't it be the act of greatest love to kill every newborn to ensure it's eternity, at the cost of a few years living this life? Of course, the perpetrator would go to hell, but would that be a small price to pay for the salvation of the world?

Further, wouldn't it be the best act of compassion to NOT send missionaries to corners of the world that have not heard of God, nor can they hear of God, if their salvation is assured by their "impossible task" of knowing God? Isn't our outreach to make it "possible" for them to know God an eternal death wish for many of them, if they were all destined for heaven before our arrival?


7 posted on 01/16/2006 6:53:09 AM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: NYer
If it is enough to seek peace with good will to be saved, of what use is Christianity?

If self-centered and psychopathic people almost entirely ignorant of human anatomy or psychology can beget, conceive, and bring children to birth, of what possible use is falling in Love?

13 posted on 01/16/2006 7:32:37 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Allahu Fubar! (with apologies to Sheik Yerbouty))
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To: NYer

I cannot see but that what +BXVI said is Orthodox theology as taught by the Fathers. Theosis is becoming Christlike in our very being, by dying to the self and focusing completely on God. Since God is wholly transcendant we can never in this life fully understand God. In that regard we have no more faculty of understanding than a pagan. What the Church gives us is a way of life which tends to focus the eye of the soul on God and away from ourselves. As that focus becomes clearer, grace, the uncreated energy of God, in turn further transforms us. But what is to say that, if the goal for, indeed the created purpose of, all humanity is to become Christlike, a pagan cannot, by grace, fulfill that purpose? Why would one presume to limit whither the Spirit goes? What does one say about a pagan born in a non Christian land who lives his life in such a manner as to become Christlike without even knowing it? The Fathers wrote of the "sporoi" the seeds of the Faith which they perceived in pagan beliefs.("Some say that we can do nothing good until we actively receive the grace of the Holy Spirit. This is not true." +Mark the Ascetic) These would seem to be the common heritage of created persons. If these exist, they exist for a purpose and I suspect that purpose is for the Holy Spirit to act upon them even if the seedbed isn't Christian or Jewish.How that happens, or even if it happens, I have no idea and I certainly don't ascribe to any sort of Universalism.

"Every Christian must make the effort to merit this salvation with a life of fidelity to God, of charity towards his brothers, of good works."

I think I know what he means, but I also think this is a very unfortunate choice of words. "Merit" doesn't fit real well with theosis. How does one "merit" theosis?


14 posted on 01/16/2006 8:40:00 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: NYer; Hermann the Cherusker
A third and last point refers to these people's fate. The Pope affirms with St. Augustine that "God will not allow them to perish with Babylon, being predestined to be citizens of Jerusalem." But with a very specific condition: "That they be dedicated with a pure conscience to these tasks."

The Pope, as the words of St. Augustine themselves demonstrate, try to remind us of a truth that belongs from the beginning of Christian history to our faith and that profoundly characterizes the Christian conception of salvation.

This truth contains two fundamental principles: The first is that God wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth, as St. Paul says in the Second Letter to Timothy. To know, in this sense, means to adhere, to welcome the Lord in one's life.

The second: Historically, the Gospel has not been able to conquer all hearts, whether because it has not arrived materially in all places on earth, or because, though it has arrived, not all have accepted it.

Yikes. It's really rather sad that a Professor of Theology at the Gregorian could be so unaware of what Augustine actually believed and taught. St. Augustine did not believe that God desires all men to be saved: "Accordingly, when we hear and read in Scripture that He 'will have all men to be saved,' although we know well that all men are not saved, we are not on that account to restrict the omnipotence of God, but are rather to understand the Scripture, 'Who will have all men to be saved,' as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will, but that no man is saved apart from His will; and that, therefore, we should pray Him to will our salvation, because if He will it, it must necessarily be accomplished." (Enchiridion on Faith, Hope, and Charity, no. 103) Of course he was wrong on this, since Scripture really is quite clear ... As regards ignorance, Augustine knew well that it cannot save. This interpretation of the Pope's words is abusive. "God will not allow them to perish with Babylon, being predestined to be citizens of Jerusalem." The Pope says these men are predestined to be citizens of Jerusalem, but Morali seems to think that they remain citizens of Babylon and are saved in that state...

Therefore the nature of the human race, generated from the flesh of the one transgressor, if it is self-sufficient for fulfilling the law and for perfecting righteousness, ought to be sure of its reward, that is, of everlasting life, even if in any nation or at any former time faith in the blood of Christ was unknown to it. For God is not so unjust as to defraud righteous persons of the reward of righteousness, because there has not been announced to them the mystery of Christ's divinity and humanity, which was manifested in the flesh. For how could they believe what they had not heard of; or how could they hear without a preacher? ' For "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." But I say (adds he): Have they not heard? "Yea, verily; their sound went out into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

Before, however, all this had been accomplished, before the actual preaching of the gospel reaches the ends of all the earth--because there are some remote nations still (although it is said they are very few) to whom the preached gospel has not found its way,--what must human nature do, or what has it done--for it had either not heard that all this was to take place, or has not yet learnt that it was accomplished--but believe in God who made heaven and earth, by whom also it perceived by nature that it had been itself created, and lead a right life, and thus accomplish His will, uninstructed with any faith in the death and resurrection of Christ?

Well, if this could have been done, or can still be done, then for my part I have to say what the apostle said in regard to the law: "Then Christ died in vain." For if he said this about the law, which only the nation of the Jews received, how much more justly may it be said of the law of nature, which the whole human race has received, "If righteousness come by nature, then Christ died in vain." If, however, Christ did not die in vain, then human nature cannot by any means be justified and redeemed from God's most righteous wrath--in a word, from punishment--except by faith and the sacrament of the blood of Christ. (St. Augustine of Hippo, Treatise on Nature and Grace, Against the Pelagians, no. 2)


16 posted on 01/16/2006 8:47:56 AM PST by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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To: NYer
Morali: ..."Every Christian must make the effort to merit this salvation with a life of fidelity to God, of charity towards his brothers, of good works. However, no one can be certain of his own salvation, because only God has the power to grant it."

The above is a blasphemous statement. God's justice isn't for sale by performing works of penance, or any meritorious thought we might have. The ONLY method one may obtain salvation is as a gift of grace from God. When we have a purely NON-MERITORIOUS faith in our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus, then our faith is identical to that of Christ. When we believe in God through Christ, God's perfect justice is free to give us by grace, salvation from condemnation. Salvation doesn't depend upon our morality. it is dependednt upon God, and our remaining in fellowship with Him by adjusting to His justice by putting o the mind of Christ.

God is perfectly holy. His holiness is comprised of perfect righteousness and perfect justice. Whereever he encounters unrighteousness, His perfect righteousness demands perfect justice.

Whenever we think we are performing good in order to receive favor, we fail to put on the mind of Christ. Gospel and our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus have provided a method by which we may understand, namely through faith in God, which is non-meritorious and is frequently manifest in our works.

30 posted on 01/16/2006 3:10:06 PM PST by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: NYer
"...that those who observe with zeal the natural law and its precepts engraved by God in the hearts of all men, can attain eternal life if they are willing to obey God and lead a good life."

This is true, although the set of men who are able to lead a good life without faith in Christ is the null set, as their humanly good works, void of divine good is simply good for nothingness to be cast into the lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment. This is a little fact that freemasons on many religious people fail to tell their juniors.

33 posted on 01/16/2006 3:21:17 PM PST by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: NYer

IMHO, the article goes much further to confuse believers who have fallen into religiousity and legalism into mistaken and confused notions. Rather than clarify the meanings of belief, faith, trustworthiness, doctrine, sanctification, life after salvation, and non-meritorious thinking, the article tends to encourage morality and now condoning any good in any environment as identifiable with God.

It might be noted that in every instance of Satan's falls in the Scripture, he was always promoting good and surrounded by perfect environment, yet in each case he failed to exhibit the mind of Christ and remain obedient to God by God's methods.


36 posted on 01/16/2006 3:40:40 PM PST by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: NYer

I don't see what all the confusion and controversy is about. Sounds to me like the Holy Father is talking about simply what we used to call "Baptism of Desire."


51 posted on 01/16/2006 11:03:39 PM PST by baa39
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To: NYer

Good article.


80 posted on 01/17/2006 10:18:14 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: NYer
Deuteronomy 4:19..."And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Malachi 1:11..."For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."

Though, "If I knew God I'd be Him."

88 posted on 01/17/2006 10:21:53 PM PST by onedoug
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To: NYer
in which he spoke about the possibility of salvation for non-Christians.

I'm not Catholic, but I really DO hope he didn't say that... if so, I dread what the power of the Catholic church could do toward this great big ecumenical one world church movement that is going on.

98 posted on 01/18/2006 3:20:07 PM PST by Terriergal (W W J B D ?)
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