Posted on 01/16/2006 12:59:35 AM PST by Gamecock
See you soon.
Of course not. God knew everything from the beginning of time.
A similar question I would pose to you; has there ever been a time when God has not directed even one event? If there has been then God is not God.
Under your soteriology God is unable to bring man to full repentance simply because it goes against man's will. People cannot pray for someone else's salvation because it would violate their free will. God is powerless to rescue someone because it goes against their will. This didn't seem to stop God from zapping Paul.
You won't get any argument from Augustine, Luther or Calvin on that. The point of disagreement is that if once God decides to save someone is that grace irresistable? The Arminian would say yes. The Calvinist would say that if God sets His mind to it, it will be accomplished. Otherwise, don't bother to pray for anyone cause it won't do any good.
****The difference between Calvinists and Catholics is largely a difference over the MEANING of what it means to have free will.****
>> I disagree. Most of us would say it's over Grace and Works. <<
Well, I had meant the biggest disagreement over FREE WILL that Catholics and Calvinists have... but -- and I happened to have touched on this is my first post -- I do think that even the disagreement over Free Will does stem from our disagreement over Grace and Works. So if that's what you meant, I actually do agree with you.
LOL, now I'm confused!
LOL, now I'm confused!
Mongergism.com is an amazing site. My favorite (other than A Puritan's Mind) on the net.
>> I think the Arminian (and perhaps the Catholic?) position sees election as some kind of ratification of the foreseen choice, whereas Calvinists see election as causative of conversion. <<
I think this is Arminian issue is a substantial source of the misunderstanding between Calvinists and Catholics (and Kosta, I'd probably lump Orthodox in with the Catholics on this one, but let me know if you have a problem with what I write.)
The Catholic position is not the Calvinist position, but it is not the Arminian position either. The Catholic position is this: God, having created us, loves us. He created us so that it is our nature to respond to his love for us. But, because of the stain of sin, we cannot detect this love for us, and we have become ignorant of it. Through grace, God removes the stain of sin, and we once again can experience that love.
I'm inventing this metaphor, so there will probably be many legitimate problems with it pointed out, but here goes:
Our closest ability to understand God's unconditional love for us comes from our unconditional love for our own child; In fact, God gives us the grace of taking part in the creation of another so that we may understand him better.
The newborn child: Has it given birth to itself? No.
When a child becomes filthy, the child will stink. The Father will clean the child. Does the child want to be cleaned? Probably not. Can the child clean itself? No.
As the child grows, the Father will teach the child to clean itself. Can the child clean itself without the father? No, the father has provided everything the child needs to clean itself: the home, the plumbing, the towels, the clean clothes. If the child does not clean itself, will the parent not make sure the child is cleaned? Of course.
But as the child grows older, how foolish would the child be to say, "I will mess in my pants, and I will not clean myself. For my Father loves me, and if I have faith in that love, I will become clean." Rather, the child, knowing that the Father has taught him good things, obeys the father by cleaning himself. And when the child's younger siblings mess themselves, the child helps his siblings to become clean also.
Does the Father want the child to have messy pants? No. Will the Father not love the child who messes his pants? Of course he will. Will the Father hug the child with messy pants? Yes. But he may ask the child to clean himself first. If the child believes that the Father would not love him because he messed his pants, though, would the Father not run after the child, messy pants and all, and warmly hug the child? Yes.
Is it not our duty as older siblings to help younger siblings stay clean? Yes. Does that mean the Father cannot keep our siblings clean without our help? Of course not.
The "Armenian" position (at least as presented by Calvinists) is that the child must accept the love of the father in order to be loved. That is absurd.
The position with the Catholic Church rejected is not that we need to choose God, nor that we can save ourselves; what the Catholic Church simply rejects is the notion that the Father doesn't want us to clean our own backsides when we take a dump. Through the church, God has provded us a toilet, toilet paper, a shower, cleaning cloths, soap, a warm house, warm water, etc. He expects us to use them.
But, it is God who works in you, who began a good work and will complete it....NOT YOU.
Yes, we MUST work our salvation with fear and trembling.
But, we must always remember that any of our efforts are by God's grace and Spirit.
I didn't know if you thought I was saying that the disagreement over the meaning of Free Will was bigger than the issue of works or whether you were saying that, even on the topic of Free Will, the issue of works was more important than the misundertanding of the meaning of free will.
If you were asserting the first, I agree with you; I had meant that the definition of free will was the biggest disagreement between Catholics and Calvinists only in the context of our discussion of free will.
If you were asserting the latter, I probably still would ultimately agree with you, since I believe that the confusion over the meaning of "free will" does stem from the difference in our understanding of salvation by grace alone.
Haven't we had this entire discussion enough times, Fru? Come on now...if you're not gonna dance, then don't come to the party. :>)
Reading between the lines, I think you just agreed that God knows everything without exception.
What is so fearful about that question to you guys? Just answer it and get it behind you.
His grace and Spirit are the means we need for our salvation. But He does not comple us to use them. We must choose to accept and use the means He so graciously gives us, even if we have done nothing to deserve them.
You believe the same as we do insofar as God knows everything without exception. What exactly that entails and what the implications are is a source of disagreement.
So, if you want to dispense with the games, you could clarify the relevance of your question to the topic at hand by explaining in more detail what your view of God's omniscience has to do with it.
Or...we can continue to dance.
No question that Arminianism and other forms of semi-Pelagianism are works-righteousness based.
It's easy to see the theological failure of Arminianism just by how many times they get tripped up when they resort to such nonsensical illustrations and analogies.
"What the Arminian wants to do is to arouse man's activity: what we want to do is to kill it once for all---to show him that he is lost and ruined, and that his activities are not now at all equal to the work of conversion; that he must look upward. They seek to make the man stand up: we seek to bring him down, and make him feel that there he lies in the hand of God, and that his business is to submit himself to God, and cry aloud, 'Lord, save, or we perish.' We hold that man is never so near grace as when he begins to feel he can do nothing at all. When he says, 'I can pray, I can believe, I can do this, and I can do the other,' marks of self-sufficiency and arrogance are on his brow." -- C. H. Spurgeon
According to Spurgeon, the Arminian needs to get people to work harder and train better in order to win Smith's hypothetical race so that God's bet will pay off.
I think you can speak for someone else soteriology but not for mine.
God has always been in control and God has always known everything. God is not a schizoid being with His planning ability over here, his reflective capacity around the corner, and his knowledge over there, and his power out yonder someplace.
God chose you in Christ.
"In his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent, or uncertain." (Westminster Confession, II:2)
"God the great Creator of all things doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently." (Westminster Confession, V:1,2)
Now I'm tracking.....
The potter knows what he wants to make when he begins to work on a lump of clay. The clay only discovers the intent of the potter by yielding to the potter's touch. God has a concept of what He wants me to be when He starts to work in my life. I can only find the mind of God by yielding to His touch
Perfect! While on the potter's wheel is when He deals with those things that of not of Him. to name a few - pride, jealousy, self righteousness, stubborness.
It's just not accepting Jesus into our hearts but conforming to His Will. He conforms us on the Potter's Wheel as we submit to His correction as we crucify our flesh daily to get His desired results. NOT many are willing to submit to this. The Holy Spirit gives us the strength to go through this process ONLY when we totally give our life over, total submission. God tears out by the roots, those things NOT of Him - our mindset, our feelings, our desire for the wrong things (i.e., gossip). It is not a pleasant place to be but it's the only place to be. Not our will but His Will be done.
The thought that when one accepts Jesus, goes to church, prays, give their tithes, is kind to their fellow man - they are in good standing - all is well. Not so! Unless one is willing to submit to the Potter's Wheel through the His strength because we cannot do it on our own - we are not followers of Christ for He says 'take up your cross daily'. God's Wisdom and Discernment is needed in order to see wrong teaching. The Holy Spirit is the best teacher.
There will always be disagreement with those that don't have the wisdom and discernment - they try to figure out things in their own mind - what makes sense? It doesn't happen that way. God's thoughts are not our thoughts, God's ways is not our ways. The more we are on the Potter's Wheel, the more we see His thoughts and His Ways because He instills them in us. So when one doesn't submit to it and other one does, there is no way that one can convince the other of what God has shown them, instill in them. It truly is a personal relationship and total submission to understand the things of God.
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