The purpose-driven pastor (Rick Warren calls Christian fundamentalists an enemy)

LAKE FOREST, Calif. - This week, it was the Rose Bowl players' breakfast. This month, it will be the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Then the President's prayer breakfast in Washington, followed by an entertainment industry conference in Los Angeles.

Rick Warren, the Southern Baptist preacher's son from tiny Redwood Valley, Calif., is much in demand these days.

The founding pastor of the Saddleback mega-church south of Los Angeles and the author of the best-selling The Purpose Driven Life, Warren is perhaps the most influential evangelical Christian in America.

With his book - the best-selling hardback nonfiction book in the nation - and Purpose-Driven Life videos and 40-day Bible study plans, Warren has created an unparalleled international network of millions of individuals and 400,000 churches, spanning faiths and denominations.

Now he wants to use his growing influence - and wealth - for an ambitious global attack on poverty, AIDS, illiteracy and disease.

"The New Testament says the church is the body of Christ, but for the last 100 years, the hands and feet have been amputated, and the church has just been a mouth. And mostly, it's been known for what it's against," Warren said during a break between services at his sprawling Orange County church campus.

Fresh from preaching to 38,000 congregants during Christmas week services, Warren was looking to the future by invoking the past.

"One of my goals is to take evangelicals back a century, to the 19th century," said Warren, 51, shifting painfully in his chair because of a back sprain suffered during an all-terrain-vehicle romp with his 20-year-old son, Matthew. "That was a time of muscular Christianity that cared about every aspect of life."

Not just personal salvation, but social action. Abolishing slavery. Ending child labor. Winning the right for women to vote.

It's time for modern evangelicals to trade words for deeds and get similarly involved, Warren contends.

At the end of his second sermon last Sunday, he reminded his largely affluent Orange County audience: "Life is not about having more and getting more. It's about serving God and serving others."

That, simply put, is his message. Give your life to God, help others, spread the word. It is the same message that Christians have been preaching for 2,000 years. Warren has updated the language, added catchphrases and five-step guides, but he readily admits "there is not a new idea in that book."

The Purpose Driven Life has sold more than 24 million English-language copies since 2002, with millions more in other languages. It has been popular with Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, with pastors and priests using it as a Bible-study handbook.

The book figured prominently in a hostage drama in Georgia last March. Ashley Smith, held by alleged Atlanta courthouse killer Brian Nichols, said he released her after she gave him methamphetamine and read to him from the book.

Warren "is able to cast the Christian story so people can hear it in fresh ways," said Donald E. Miller, director of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture at the University of Southern California. He is "a very important figure in evangelical Christianity," part of a "trend we'll see more of," Miller said, citing Warren's independence, social activism, informality and ability to reach across racial and national lines.

"The Gen X-ers are sick and tired of flash and hype and marketing," Miller said. "The soft sell of a Rick Warren is far more attractive to them than a highly stylized TV presentation of the Christian message."

Among evangelicals, Warren is more influential than better-known and more-divisive figures such as religious broadcasters Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell or radio psychologist James Dobson, and is often seen as the heir to the Rev. Billy Graham as "America's pastor."

Scott L. Thumma, a professor of the sociology of religion at Hartford Seminary and the author of a forthcoming book on mega-churches, said polls of church leaders often put Warren in first or second place among most-influential evangelical leaders.

"And one of the interesting things is that he crosses boundaries... . He's not just respected by the evangelical world but by many outside that world," Thumma said.

In North Philadelphia, the Rev. Herbert Lusk, the former Philadelphia Eagles running back who is pastor of the Greater Exodus Baptist Church and a prominent supporter of President Bush, brought Warren to town in November to raise money for aid to Africa. Lusk also tutored many of the Eagles' players and coaches in the Purpose-Driven Life program last year.

Lusk said Warren "took the principles that we preach about every Sunday and packaged them in a way that are palatable for Christians and non-Christians."

"The guy is a preacher's preacher... . He's the leading evangelical in the world, unquestionably," Lusk said.

Broadly defined, evangelicals are Christians who have had a personal or "born-again" religious conversion, believe the Bible is the word of God, and believe in spreading their faith. (The term comes from Greek; to "evangelize" means to preach the gospel.) The term is typically applied to Protestants.

Millions of Americans fit the definition, although estimates vary on exactly how many. Forty-two percent of Americans described themselves as evangelical Christians in a Gallup poll in April, while 22 percent said they met all three measures in a Gallup survey in May. The National Association of Evangelicals says about 25 percent of adult Americans are evangelicals.

Evangelicals are often equated with fundamentalists or the religious right, which annoys Warren. Although he's politically conservative - opposing abortion and gay marriage and supporting the death penalty - he pushes a much broader agenda and disdains both politics and fundamentalism.

Warren is a friend of President Bush and a repeat visitor to the White House. But he also met for several hours at Saddleback last month with Sen. John Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, to discuss issues such as poverty and the environment.

"I'm worried that evangelicals be identified too much with one party or the other. When that happens, you lose your prophetic role of speaking truth to power," Warren said. "And you have to defend stupid things that leaders do."

"Politics is always downstream from culture. I place less confidence in it than a lot of folks. I don't think that's the answer... . Politics is not the right tool to change the culture."

With his goatee and penchant for Hawaiian shirts and colloquial language, Warren embodies a laid-back approach to worship that resonates with Americans who have little allegiance to formal denominations or rituals.

His 120-acre hilltop campus, with palm trees, waterfall and meandering brook, is a kind of religious theme park, where worshipers meet in different buildings to suit their musical preferences, while watching simultaneous video feeds of Warren preaching at the main worship center.

Warren's father and grandfather and great-grandfather were all preachers. He followed their path by starting Saddleback in 1980 with his wife, Kay, and a congregation of seven. His ministry prospered in booming Orange County, as Warren went door-to-door, asking residents what they'd like in a church. For 15 years, he and his growing flock were nomads, meeting in schools, homes and other buildings. Construction started on the current campus in 1995, and Warren now has 80,000 names on Saddleback's rolls. Saddleback is a a Southern Baptist church, but it doesn't advertise the fact.

As the money has rolled in from his book, Warren said he has given most of the millions to the church and the three social-service foundations he has established. He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004.

This month, he is leading a trip to Rwanda, to train pastors and distribute medicine and money to battle AIDS and other diseases. It's part of what he calls his global PEACE plan (Plant a church, Equip leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick, Educate the next generation).

Last month, he launched the first major evangelical effort to battle AIDS, convening a three-day conference at Saddleback to mobilize American Christians to help AIDS victims and raise money to fight the disease. Part of the battle for Warren is overcoming resistance from evangelicals who view AIDS as strictly a gay disease or even as divine retribution for immoral behavior.

Warren said he sees religious institutions as more powerful forces than governments for solving the world's problems.

"I would trust any imam or priest or rabbi to know what is going on in a community before I would any government agency."

But, powerful as churches can be in working for the powerless, they can't succeed without governments and nongovernmental organizations, Warren said.

Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."

"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."

Reread what I said in #452 and #454 above where the word "anyone" also includes the Holy Spirit,

Nowhere did anyone say that evangelism does NOT take place in a building! also includes the Holy Spirit.

And let me repeat this also:

But we as individual are to be centered on Christ Jesus and when we are, then His love and His gospel will flow out of us like Living Water. We went down this same road earlier that you never addressed. When you do, then perhaps we can continue, but I don't see any Godly reason to do that again until that happens.

In the meantime, I pray that all will come more and more to a better knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord in their lives - yielding their will unto His.

You are wrong, biblically, and should stop holding to the opinion that evangelism in church is inappropriate.

LOL -If I really said that, which I did not, then yes, I would be wrong. Silly boy! I will assume that you did not read my answer to marlow since you were probably writing at the same time. But here is what I said to him:

Reread what I said in #452 and #454 above where the word "anyone" also includes the Holy Spirit,

Nowhere did anyone say that evangelism does NOT take place in a building! also includes the Holy Spirit.

And let me repeat this also:

In the meantime, I pray that all will come more and more to a better knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord in their lives - yielding their will unto His.

Take a breath, relax, read thoroughly and don't be so quick to judge others for doing what you accuse them of doing! :)

May you be filled the peace of Christ Jesus!

You got it right!

Just watch for purpose driven to enter the Catholic church. It's written vaguely enough ...

[this is often actually a formal technique called 'studied ambiguity' although many people do it unconsciously because they instinctively avoid confrontation]

... that you can take from it whatever you want. Warren is a pro at beauraucrat-speak, feeding each side just enough of what it wants to keep them coming back, and creating a false union between two opposing sides that cannot be reconciled and have no common ground.

It doesn't directly challenge anyone's *beliefs* at all - or tell you "in Christ alone" you should put your trust. It only challenges your personal preferences. Now, challenging personal preferences in itself is not bad. But it gives you no grounding upon which to make any decision regarding these things, so one's personal preference must be sacrificed for the preferences of the up-and-coming-crowd who manage to gain control, with no real thought for how it is affecting others who have something of intangible value to give to the church.

It also never specifies what message we are not to compromise. The messages I have always come away with from Rick himself and every other purpose driven or church growth pastor boils down to this:

"feeling down? Feeling stale? Feeling purposeless? not growing? Serve the church more!"

Serving the physical church oranization becomes the panacea for everything that ails you. Never are we told to withdraw, to get alone with God, to quietly study the Scriptures and be SURE what we are believing is true... and almost never to rely on other people, and especially not a mob of people, to give us our direction. This testing of everything, this challenging of Paul, is what we should be doing DAILY as the Bereans did (Acts 17) for which Paul COMMENDED them. In contrast, in purpose driven churches (with rare RARE exceptions) pastors disenfranchise those who challenge them, even if they are sincere believers.

Sad, isn't it?

The entire book of Acts is testimony to the fact that evangelism can take place anywhere, and is appropriate anywhere.....even in synagogues and churches.

Additionally, I'd add that you have a facilities-bound view of "church."

The building is to be used for "worship" in your view.

In mine, the facility is simply a building. I can use the sanctuary at one time for worship, at another time for a concert, and at another time for a conference.

A facility is multi-purpose and is not "holy ground."

The same one I've asked you 3 times already today, regarding the intent oF Warren's surveys.

"The very first step in Rick Warren's plan is to conduct a survey and find out why people in an area don't like church, then make the necessary changes to suit them. To make church more attractive to them. Correct?"

The follow-up point is:

"The motive for the church-goer at that point becomes their personal comfort and ease, not a desire to worship their creator with awe and reverence. You've now set the standard for their future attendance, and the moment they become uncomfortable, they'll be the first ones to leave. "

Thank you

Correct?"

I suppose. I don't know if that is the "very first step" or not. If he is walking with the Lord, I suspect that his very first step would be to pray for guidance. But if you say so.

"The motive for the church-goer at that point becomes their personal comfort and ease, not a desire to worship their creator with awe and reverence. You've now set the standard for their future attendance, and the moment they become uncomfortable, they'll be the first ones to leave. "

Who are you to judge the motives of people who show up at the doors of the church? Whatever method was used to get them to the door is irrelevant. The fact that they have arrived is what is important and in that sense they are there by divine appointment. Correct?

Have I answered your question? I do my best to give unto every man an answer. Sometimes (like this question) I do not see anything more than a rhetorical question. When you make a statement and then say "Correct?" and follow it up with a point, I view that as a rhetorical "correct?" and not a yes or no question.

So in direct answer to your question I will quote the Lord: "Thou sayest".

Again, I did NOT say, the bible does NOT say that evangelism cannot take church in a building or multi-purpose building. That was not the point then, it is not the point now. I understand that you think that that was my point. But that was not the point I was making and I do believe that you are reading into something that was never the issue. And you are now inferring things about me that you ought not. And somehow either I have failed to have you desire to understand or the problem is with you. Can we agree to put that lack of communication in the Lord's capable hands and leave it here rather than continue and have further issues? I believe He is more than capable of opening the eyes of those who desire His Truth. :)

RobRoy, I beg you ... read these articles on 'transitioning the established church.' This is stuff directly endorsed by Rick Warren himself. The book "Transitioning" by Dan Southerland is a very quick read and you should be able to get it at the library or through interlibrary loan (I wouldn't advise buying it and supporting it in any way). It is referenced extensivlely in the articles here, and has a glowing endorsement by Rick included. Keep in mind the following *titles* don't actually sound too bad. Just pay attention to the details of how they do it.

How to transition an established church – Part 1
by Chuck McAlister

Part 1 Plan Your Transition
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4702

Part 2 Become an Expert on the Process of Change
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4701

Part 3 Don't Be Afraid To Take Risks
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4768

Part 4 Simultaneously Transition Your Worship Style as you change
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4811

Part 5 Transition The Ministry Of The Church To The People And The Maintenance Of The Church To The Staff/Volunteer or Paid
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4844

Part 6 Transition the Educational Ministry of the Church from an Information-Imparting Ministry to a Life-Empowering Ministry
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4667

Be in the world but not of the world. There is a big difference. "Do not be conformed any longer to this world but be transformed..." (by the renewing of your outward actions? NO!)"... by the renewing of your mind." That means do not any longer think like the world. Marketing strategies for growing the church is thinking like the world. Targeting demographics is worldly. It is all right for businesses, but the church is not a business. When you run the church like a business, no wonder people are getting 'fired' for not conforming or 'producing' as well as the 'boss(es)' think(s) they should.

Luring the masses into church with espresso, thumping bass drums, and a rave atmosphere is pursuading people by appealing to fleshly desires.

Much in common with the preachers on TBN. "show your faith by supporting my ministry and God will"

A. "heal you" B. "make you happy" C. "give you lots of money" D. "make your marriage better" E. all of the above.

As another giant church pastor writes "his best lie yet."

Another way of putting it is to compel them to come in to the banquet so God's house will be full and then they can be fed.

read this:

"One of the great difficulties is to keep before the audience's mind the question of Truth. They always think you are recommending Christianity not because it is true but because it is good. And in the discussion they will at every moment try to escape from the issue "True--or False" into stuff about a good society, of morals, or the incomes of Bishops, or the Spanish Inquisition, or France, or Poland--or anything whatever. You have to keep forcing them back, and again back, to the real point. Only thus will you be able to undermine...their belief that a certain amount of "religion" is desirable but one mustn't carry it too far. One must keep on pointing out that Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The one thing it cannot be is moderately important."

CS Lewis God in the Dock

>>Whatever method was used to get them to the door is irrelevant.<<

Not to the seeker-sensitive churches it isn't! Luring them in with shiny things is most relevant! Right? Whatever it takes, and such.

If they're brought in under false pretenses, it matters very much.

It ALL hinges on motives.

See my other comments on "conditional worship" and "bait n' switch" for follow-up.

Christ dined with tax collectors and prostitutes, but not to affirm their lifestyle or appeal to their desires. He told them the truth and ministered to them, calling them, he didn't justify their worldliness by giving them MORE worldliness.

I find it interesting that he never called himself the friend of sinners. He said "you are my friends if you do what I command." In that same section he says "I no LONGER call you servants" So apparently he did have that kind of 'relationship' with them at one point. Jesus was not a teddy bear who made everyone feel good about themselves. Least of all those who thought they were OK in their sin - both closet sinners, the pharisees, and blatant sinners. It was those who were heartbroken about their sin that he reached. And only those.

He said "they say, "Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'"

I have not called Rick warren any of those things. I have criticized his teaching and the words he speaks publicly. I applaud his concern for the downtrodden. That should be part of our mission and it should flow naturally from our knowledge of Scripture. But Rick puts the cart before the horse thinking that if we just are loving to someone that's enough, it doesn't matter if we tell them the truth or not. The biggest part of love IS telling the truth, even when it is uncomfortable, because only by truth can anyone really 'get their lives fixed' (for lack of a better way to say it) and get their eternity taken care of. And only by truth can God be glorified, which is the main thing.

If the truth of the message is lost (which I contend it has been, at least in his publicly available teachings), the concern for the downtrodden really means nothing in light of eternity. Faithfulness to Christ comes first, and from that comes all our mission.

If they're brought in under false pretenses, it matters very much.

They are not being brought in under false pretenses. That is a scurrilous charge. They have made their services more "seeker friendly". There is no biblical prohibition against being friendly or wearing jeans or drinking cokes in the assembly. IMO, Your attitude is pretty close to Pharisicalism. (is that a word?)

Now you appear to have failed to answer my question. Perhaps you missed it:

(assuming that nobody lied to them to get them in the door)... The fact that they have arrived is what is important and in that sense they are there by divine appointment. Correct?

Why would you call the worship songs being written today worldly?

Having been born in a musical family, and having been worship leaders in the church we were kicked out of, we have spent long hours day in and day out laboring over this.

Many of them are worldly. They are self centered, they focus more on our response and our feelings about God than on what he has done. Not all, but many.

there are some old hymns that also do this. they are not terrible, but they are shallow. An overabundance of shallow songs, by which seems to come most of the teaching in the church these days, leaves a believer spiritually anemic.

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The purpose-driven pastor

By Paul Nussbaum

Inquirer Staff Writer