Posted on 01/10/2006 10:06:56 AM PST by Terriergal
You still missed the point of what I said - both times.
And thank you. Most people just gloss right over the main point for other arguements. We are all supposed to be individual fishers. The Word does not say send out the big fishing boats, but send out fishers. It does not say that we are to go and gather all the fish and put them in a big pond where they can be entertained to death of self, but to each go and gather by preaching the Word. Big difference.
You didn't answer my questions, Counselor - you changed the subject.
I'm not talking about what happened then, I'm talking about what's happening now. Is it true, or is it untrue that one of the first steps in Rick Warren's PDC process is to conduct a survey to find out what is keeping people from going to church?
"Felt needs" is another way of saying "fleshly desires", and if you're winning them into the church by meeting those desires, then you're winning them TO a christian life which incorporates those desires instead of mortifying them.
What happens when the music stops entertaining them? When they get used to the coffee? When they've bought all the guides and books the store has to carry? When the snappy t-shirts don't fit? When they 'come down' off of the "experience"? Such a reliance on worldly things leads to a shallow understanding of faith, and is quickly dissipated. See the parable of the seeds as an example.
The reprobate have only one, true 'felt need'. The need to avoid eternal damnation by clinging to Christ. Everything else is fluff.
>>But we can offer them a smile and a cup of coffee and a promise that the experience may just change their lives.<<
Who are you to promise that? Such an approach is a far cry from Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost. No coffee, warm smiles, or "luring" there - just the straight-up, undilluted Gospel truth.
The very fact that you call worship an "experience" says a lot about the showmanship that goes behind it. Like it's some sort of circus act or Pink Floyd Lazer Show. Calling it an "experience" automatically shows that it's designed for the person, not God. Worship then becomes focused on what the individual can get from it, rather than it's true intent - which is to give God what He is due.
And that, my friend, is misguided and man-centered.
I don't see the deep theology in the second song you posted. God and I are not "buddies". He is my God, my Creator and Sustainer, the LORD of the whole Universe, my Savior and Light.
Tim is my friend, Shaun is my friend, Susan is my friend. I am God's child, and all I have, even my very next breath is dependent upon Him and His good will and pleasure.
Your song there seems to cheapen the relationship, and bring God down to a "chummy" level. It just can't compare to something like "A Mighty Fortress is our God", or "Man of Sorrows".
I just don't see Hebrews 12:28&29 applying to that song:
"Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire."
By the by, I never much cared for "In the Garden" either.
No. If you are GETTING THEM INTO CHURCH, then you are doing what Paul said is sometimes necessary to win them to Christ. To the weak he became weak. These people are weak. They need a reason to get up on Sunday and go into Church. So you make the experience somewhat comfortable and once they are in there you bombard them with the Word of Truth.
Now I disagree with Warren's non-confrontive sermon style, but that is his style. But if we don't get these people to a place where they can hear the word of God, then we are not doing our job as a Church.
What happens when the music stops entertaining them? When they get used to the coffee? When they've bought all the guides and books the store has to carry? When the snappy t-shirts don't fit? When they 'come down' off of the "experience"? Such a reliance on worldly things leads to a shallow understanding of faith, and is quickly dissipated. See the parable of the seeds as an example.
And who is harmed if the goats are entertained? Isn't it much more important that the sheep be brought into the flock than that the goats be kept away? It seems to me that some people here think they can't properly worship God if there is a marginal Christian or a non-Christian sitting next to them obsverving the process. Maybe God put that marginal Christian or non-Christian in the pew next to you for a reason. Aren't you the guys who say that everything happens for a purpose? Maybe that was a bad word to use on you, eh?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Is God YOUR friend, friend?
>>I am concerned when people here use the term "unbiblical methods".<<
You should be more concerned for the churches that implement them.
>>don't understand what one means by "watered down".<<
Not giving the full message of the gospel. Not saying a word about sin and its' vileness for fear of offending the newcomers. Only preaching about the benefits of salvation, not WHY it's necessary. Preaching fluff instead of meat.
>>and quit their former course of living<<
Kinda hard to do when you've brought them into the church by using the same things that are in their current course of living.
The Church is to be set apart and sanctified as a holy place. A place for worshipping the Lord in reverence and awe. Not a discotheque/bookstore/coffeehouse/club house/arcade.
You can't call people out of the world by using worldly means. It's like trying to hold an AA meeting at a bar.
How do you explain all the Christians who have been saved under these "seeker friendly" ministries? Are they all goats? Are they all tares?
"I don't see the deep theology in the second song you posted. God and I are not "buddies". He is my God, my Creator and Sustainer, the LORD of the whole Universe, my Savior and Light."
This is the deepest theology we can begin to understand. How a holy God could call his fallen creation, friend.
Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Do you have a Bible verse that says that? Sola Scriptura. Help me out here.
And when did "the Church" become "a place?"
>>If you are GETTING THEM INTO CHURCH<<
...by using fleshly means. You're missing the point, Counselor. get them into the church, yes. Compel them to come in, yes. But not with worldy means - do so by using the gospel of Christ.
>>you make the experience somewhat comfortable and once they are in there you bombard them with the Word of Truth.<<
That's known as Bait n' Switch where I come from, and it's dishonest. Again, what happens when the "experience" fades? You're creating a whole environment based on THEIR comfort. Focusing on their needs and what they can get from it, rather than the true point of worship - glorifying God. Can't you see how wrong that is?
The motive is true, the motive is good, I don't doubt that. But the means in which you implement the plan is deceitful by it's very root.
Entirely different context, and therefore an entirely different definition of "friend".
The song's context infers an equal relationship - it's sappy and saccharine-sweet. Frankly, it sounds like a poem a love-sick teenage girl would write to her equally love-sick boyfriend. It sounds - well - juvenile and immature.
I would also daresay that Abraham would have a much different take on his relationship with God than a catchy "JC is my buddy" song.
>>How do you explain all the Christians who have been saved under these "seeker friendly" ministries? Are they all goats? Are they all tares?<<
Not for me to judge, but we should bear in mind that the road to eternal life is narrow and those who find it are few.
I read somewhere that the backslider rates for this "seeker-friendly" phenomena are pretty substantial. I've also seen first-hand people that are swept up in the emotion and "experience", then a few days or weeks later are right back where they started. Not "feeling the experience" anymore.
Kinda Childish, huh?
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 18:3-4 KJV)
Do you disagree? That the church building is not to be set apart and sanctified as a holy place?
Examples? Every old testament reference to the holiness of the tabernacle. Nadab and Abihu offering the unclean fire. Eli's two worthless sons profaning the temple and priests. Christ himself driving the money changers out of the temple for turing it into a place of commerce.
If you're content with your church building being some sort of club-house for worldliness - that's on you. We treat ours differently. The gathering of believers is to be a thing of worship, awe, and reverence - giving the LORD His glory and honor. Not satisfying the fleshly desires of the unsaved.
There's no such thing as a carnal Christian.
Oh brother. The passage you cite is a reference that we cling to Christ the way a child clings to his parents. That we rely on Christ for everything as a child relies on his parents.
Not child-like in behavior or maturity. Quite the opposite, we are told to put away childish things and to grow and mature in Christ.
Bad example - try again.
So what?
I don't suppose you've ever backslidden, huh?
I'd have to say that in my experience 100% of all Christians backslide in one way or the other.
It is our job to bring people to where they can receive the truth. If they receive it, it is God's job to see them through. And he will. Whether they backslide or not. Or don't you believe that?
Now if you wouldn't mind, could show me some scripture where "the Church" has become "a place?"
It's the place (the visible church) wherever people gather together in his name, be it a building, a house, a basement, a cave or a field.
In either case, it's to be set apart from the world, just as we (the invisible church) are called to be set apart from the world.
And while the temple itself has been rent, it doesn't negate the holiness of the gathering. See Paul's letters to Timothy on the importance of church structure and order. See Paul's rebuke to the Corinthian church for their very un-holy gatherings.
Now, are you still suggesting that the church isn't to be set apart from the world?
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