Polygamy acceptance comes and goes with this cult. Clearly Mormonism is not a Christian belief.
"The Book of Mormon has been changed hundreds of times, as a point in fact.. . . So even by their own rule, the Book of Mormon is a fraud. But that doesn't matter because Mormons have a burning in their hearts."
I may be wrong, but I believe that in the Bible, somewhere, it says that, by faith alone are ye saved. Which should not be taken as meaning that all empirical evidence must be completely ignored. Simply that, one should not cherry-pick.
Did I miss something? He didn't actually make those points in this talk, did he? Too bad.
I heard a series of four talks on the radio from this organization on abortion and the speaker made the point that abortion is killing a human being without mentioning the Bible once. Just using reason. I thought it was pretty impressive.
It just boggles my mind people can be so hate filled against another. It is so simple... Why the desire to slander a human are you better???? Have you gained the knowledge of eternal life yourself??? is it by your knowledge???????? Judge righteuous judgement,,, And study to show yourself approved... May the lord the Lord have mercy on our souls for our ignorance(iniquity) to seek him.. For the flesh shall be consumed and all that shall remain are your good deeds/words for all thoughts and deeds shall be judged(take into account) therefore be mindful of your thoughts towards one another,,, Now this person who beleives in morman is he more than a man???? Are you???? We are to be boastfull of our life in Christ Jesus not slanderous to others... you know this!!
/cut/
So, the easiest way to deal with this conflict is to give lip service to the authority of the Bible
Is this about Mormons or the RCs/EOs?
Koukl just ignores the Mormons' story of the angelic source of the Book of Mormon, which would seem to make their claim to divine inspiration both more direct and more recent than any that can be made for the Bible.
I haven't got a God in this fight, but this is just silly; it's just somebody who disapproves of Mormonism preaching to his choir - and not making any sense.
So far as Mormons go, my experience is that the saved ones are good neighbors and the lost ones throw great parties. Beyond that, I have no opinion at all.
While the author of the piece has a laudable goal--disabusing Mormons of their heresy (I am being charitable here in regarding Mormons as heretical Christians)--good goals cannot be attained by shoddy means. Another poster pointed to one false dichotomy, I would suggest that the author's entire approach to Scripture is based on a false dichotomy. Either the Bible is 'given' to man by God, or it's merely a human product?
No Christian authority until the reformation approached the Scriptures as a Christian Koran, which is what the first alternative of the false dichotomy would make the Bible out to be. Likewise no Christian until modern flourishing of heresies and apostacies (think Jack Spong) thought the Scriptures were merely human products.
What then? The Scriptures are indeed inspired of God, but written, editted, translated and interpreted by man. We Orthodox regard all grace as a matter of synergia or cooperation between God and man (hardly surprising since Our Savior is fully God and fully Man), and the Scriptures are no different. If you remember the selection process by which the modern Bible came into being, you are quite aware of the human hand--indeed for protestants, I would argue that the last step in the creation of their canon of Scripture (what is printed in most Bibles in America) *was* purely human: Luther decided to toss out some books because the Christ-denying Jews at the Council of Jamnia hadn't included them in their canon, in the process tossing out the only Old Covenant testimonies to the general resurrection and the only Scriptural testimony to creation *ex nihilo* (as distinct from creation from pre-existing material). (Protestants tell the lie that the Latin church 'added' those books at the Council of Trent. I know this is a lie because we Orthodox whom the Roman Patriarchate left in the 11th century have all those books, and have since the canon was fixed by the Council of Carthage and the 6th Ecumenical Council.)
Malachi 1:11...For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mormonism relates to Christianity pretty much as Islam does. The new revelation supercedes the Bible. The difference is that The Latter Day Saints ha dto live in a country ruled by Christians; therefore they have to mask their differences with the Christians. The Muslims. on the other hand, were conquerers and did not have to make concessions to the ruling authority. If they had, then they would have used the Bible, but treated the Koran as an "interpretation" of it and a correction. As they were conquerors, the Muslims simply brushed the Bible aside as an inferior revelation, and almost none of them have any knowledge of it.
I am not terribly impressed with the author's reasoning here. It seems he sets up his own false dichotomy in arguing that the only way to approach the Bible is to assume that it is either totally infallible or a fabrication of man. Mormons do not believe this. They do believe that the Bible of today is different than what the original authors wrote and that the omissions have been from negligence or have been "lost" because certain doctrines disagreed with the those accepted by the Powers-that-be who later ran the church after the death of the apostles.
How do they claim to know this? Not from examining the original writings because those are either non-existent or not available to laymen, or from "reverse-engineering" later translations. They believe this because of what they believe is modern-day revelation directly from God. (And JoelinCanada, the Lord didn't give the Bible in Greek; the Bible was written in the various languages of the human scribes and at least the Old Testament was translated into Greek in just seventy days, so Greek is also attentuated scripture for most of the Bible.)
Mormons do not try to argue their beliefs in terms of intellectual analysis. They say that the Lord personally appeared to a young boy who wanted to know what denomination was the correct church and told that kid that none were correct because their doctrines were tainted by the philosophies of men. You can either believe that the Lord is still involved with His children and speaks today through a living prophet or you can believe that He has been silent for two millenia and relies completely on the Bible to guide us. But you can't intellectually argue that Joseph Smith did not have a vision of the Lord. You can question it, as you should, but you can't prove it didn't happen or that it did happen. This can only be believed (or discounted) through personal revelation and faith.
The position of Mormons on the Bible is that it is incomplete because of those omissions and that another book, written by a people schooled in the same Law of Moses as the Old Testament people, and later visited by the Savior himself after His crucifixion ("and other sheep have I which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice" (John 10:16)) addresses, supplements and clarifies the same gospel the Savior taught in Israel.
Therefore the Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is a supplement to the Bible, clarifying areas of doctrine and gospel which are either entirely missing or ambiguous in the Bible (and Mormons believe that someday we will meet other people who also have records of the Savior's visits and teachings to them to supplement both the Bible and the Book of Mormon). Now please don't argue that the Bible isn't ambiguous, else why are there so many different denominations of Christians and so many different beliefs and practices as regards basic matters such as the Eucharist, baptism, sacraments, faith and works and other basic doctrines of the gospel. And don't argue that the Bible must not be supplemented by other sources, or you discount the creeds, the "traditions" and the writings of the Church fathers, all of which have supplemented or clarified for one denomination or another, parts of the Bible.
All that Mormons say is that they looked at the claims of Joseph Smith with an open mind, read the Book of Mormon, and asked the purported author, aka the Lord, whether it was true and they believe they received an answer. And they believe anyone is entitled to the same revelation from the Holy Spirit. But too many people seem afraid to take that step and that is understandable but please don't denigrate those who have gone through that process and believe they have received an answer. The author calls this disingenuous and assumes Mormons are fraudulent. You can argue that a belief is wrong but don't presume to know the motivations of those who hold different beliefs. Each side believes it has superior knowledge. Test it yourself and, instead of listening to so-called experts on either side, study the claims of both sides and go to the Lord in prayer and in sincere curiosity and listen to His answer--if you dare. Then follow your answer. Period. I can say it seems clear that the author of this analysis hasn't bothered to do this.
I post this cautiously because I don't have time to sit and respond to all comments this might engender. But even if I do, my answer would be: Have you read the Book of Mormon, compared it to the Bible, and gone to the Lord in prayer, expecting an answer? If you haven't done this, please don't bother to make an intellectual argument against doing so. As James 1:5-6 says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. . . "
"What you care about is protecting your own belief system, whether it's true or not."
To believe one's belief system is to protect, preserve and perpetuate a people and its culture, while at the same time uniting its organizational structure. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, that ought to be the ultimate purpose of organized religion. The Mormons are, unknowingly, I believe, doing exactly that. God bless them!
Love thy neighbor.
What?