Posted on 01/08/2006 5:27:18 PM PST by TexConfederate1861
Pace youself, Tex.
Perhaps :)
I'm quite skeptical of this statement. I've known a lot of Protestant ministers, including several rather violently anti-Catholic ones. None would say that her veneration is the cause of all bad in the world.
Tex Confederate on 1/5/06 1. RC & EO DO NOT "WORSHIP" DEAD PEOPLE....
Says it all right there.
" 3"You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands[b] of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20:3-6)
Fr. Whiteford didn't write that. That was the question asked of him. The questioner was in error.
The Orthodox Eastern church has celebrated the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, and has proclaimed her ever-virgin. They also celebrate her bodily assumption to heaven. These practices go way back before 800AD.
But, their theologians also like to make fine points of distinction about what each of these doctrines mean, and how they differ from the Catholics. However, and this is the real point, the Eastern faithful believe and practise exactly the same as Catholic faithful. The Easterns honor her just as much, and in fact, placed side to side nowadays, I would suggest that Orthodox liturgical statements, observances and prayers to and about Mary are far more Marian than your average "modernised" Catholic.
Yep. Can I share this too before I head out:
"Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers."
(Martin Luther in his sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39)
For those of us unable to read more than a sentence an hour, let me use this sentence to assure you that in a fw hours you will see that while the questioner says "we worshp the Virgin Mary," the answerer says (correctly) that we don't worship her -- and if you come back in an hour, when you're ready to read the next sentence, maybe you can explain what the purpose or benefit is of accusing somebody of something untrue and insisting in the face of their denial that you are right.
For those of you able to read at a normal speed, how stupid is this? We repeatedly make the distinction between doulia and latria and certain of the more aggressive and less thoughtful of our opponents disregard us. It's like Democrats accusing the Republicans of anti-semitism. It's useless and wastes time, and makes the devil happy. How can one respect a person who says there is no difference between respect and idolatry?
Thanks...he obviously didn't bother to read any further.:)
Keep on reading further....as I said, "WE" don't!
My thoughts exactly:)
Actions speak louder than terms however. That is why I posted the biblical command--which cleary forbids actions of worship...be they called veneration or not, the command clearly doesn't distinquish any difference--so nor should we. Perhaps though the tradition is more subtle and intelligent than Moses taking dictation of God's law?
Early pagans defended their paganism by claiming not to really worship the image of a god...using the same arguments of modern Christian image worshipers using doulia and latria . If one bows down before an image, or prays to someone other than Father Son and Holy Ghost, clearly they do violate the law of God.
Regarding veneration not being worship: "If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck....IT'S A DUCK!"
For the most part Protestants, particularly preachers, don't give it all that much thought.
Seeing as how the questioner also thought the Orthodox 'worship' Mary, I'm skeptical of the whole thing.
Now this article by the good Fr. John is more like it! :)
I elected not to elaborate on this the other day in the interest of brevity. After trying to read your two postings today, brevity seems to be a far away place. "blessed are the paps which gave you suck" is a direct reference to Semaramis, the mother and wife of Tammuz in Babylonian lore. This woman was directly rebuked by her Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, for equating Mary with someone to be worshipped. Worshipping statues of the "Mother and Child" dates back to the apostate descendants of Noah. Erecting these statues is idloatry. Praying to Mary is a violation of the commandment to not put any Gods before Me. Jesus Christ is our only intercessor at the right hand of the Father. Unless you want to debate the definition of the word "is".
More Protestant "babble-speak"
Whenever you guys can't accept the fact that Jesus Christ honors his own mother, then you start yelling "Quack Quack, the MOTHER GODDESS, Whore of Babylon...etc."
YAWN......It didn't work when Jonathan Edwards tried to spew such propoganda, and it won't work on me.
This statement is an example of your traditions flying in the face of scripture.
There is nothing wrong with tradition....only when it contradicts plain scripture should it be examined and if needed, eliminated.
Psalm 69:8-9, [I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons, for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.] In John 2:17 we read, [His disciples remembered that it is written: Zeal for your house will consume me.]
There is not one statement anywhere in scripture that says Mary was to forever remain a virgin. This is false tradition. Jesus came from a family of at least 4 half brothers,[Matthew 13:55-56] James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas and at least 2 sisters.....children of Joseph and Mary. If they would have been children of Joseph by another woman they would have been called step brothers and step sisters. Mark also identifies the same folks in chapter 6:3.
Jesus did not have a good relationship with his brothers of the flesh and scripture identifies several episodes. In Matthew 12:46-48/Mark 3:31-34 Jesus rebukes his family by calling all who do the will of the Father his brothers, sisters and mother. In Mark 3:20-22 Jesus is called crazy by his own family and in John 7:1-10 his own brothers are attempting to get him killed. Jesus was staying away from the Feast of Tabernacles because the Jews were there waiting to kill him. In verse 3 his brothers tell him, "You ought to go so everyone can see your miracles". In verse 5 it says, For even his own brothers did not believe him.
Remember Psalm 69? "I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons".
Jesus told them He would not go to the Feast but after the brothers left he went anyway, in secret, not in public. Now lots of folks have called these "brothers" brethren, followers, listeners to his every word. You can see that this is not true. These folks were called "Adephos" in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Adephos is the Greek word for brother. The Greek word for cousin is "Anepsios" found in Colossians 4:10 where the Apostle Paul describes the anepsios of Mark....Barnabas. If the writers of the gospels and Paul wanted us to know they were cousins they would have used the word "Anepsios". Paul, in Galatians 1:19 specifically calls James the "Adephos"(brother) of the Lord.
I won't even get into the scriptures showing Joseph and Mary having a normal Hebrew marriage but Ignatius in one of his letters to the Apostle John late in the 1st century (2nd Epistle) alludes to the fact that James is said to look just like Jesus, "A twin-brother of the same womb" and Hegesippus writing in the 2nd century calls James, holy from his mother's womb. He also calls Jude's grand kids kindred of the Lord and Jude himself a brother of the flesh. There is much evidence in scripture to prove that Joseph and Mary had other children and there is also history from the early church fathers. There is no proof, only tradition, of Mary's continued virginity.
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