And probably from your definition of salvation, which is not a Scriptural one. Salvation is seen as a past, present, and future event. It is not ONLY a past, one-time event. This is probably where a lot of the confusion stems from.
As to works not necessary for salvation, James disagrees:
My brethren, What shall it profit though someone says [that] they have faith and do not have works? Shall faith [without works] be able to save them? James 2:14
Faith without works is dead, so how can one not have works of love and still think they will be saved? Paul agrees by saying that faith, even if it can move mountains, is NOTHING without love.
As to cooperation, I have found the Gospel of John very helpful lately in seeing how a disciple's work IN Christ is not different then Christ's Work IN the Father. That is what is meant by sharing in life, or as Peter calls it, a share in the Divine Nature. I have found that God often points me in the right direction when I have such conversations. I wish I was more grateful sometimes...
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes in me, the works that I do he shall do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do because I go unto my Father." John 14:12
It seems clear to me that with "life" within us, we can do the works of God - to believe in Jesus Christ and obey His commandments.
I will say again that from man's POV, he can do nothing "good" before salvation.
And I will again disagree. When united with Christ, it is not I alone who works, but God working in me. Based on this cooperation (or lack thereof) will I be judged, not on a one-time acceptance of Jesus as my Lord and Savior... But of course, I am using a different sense of "salvation" then you - because that one-time, first time justification is not the end.
We have discussed the responsibility and expectation issues at length.
I still do not understand how a person is judged "on his deeds", knowing that man cannot even cooperate at all with God's graces. You seem to have avoided giving an explanation on this, chalking it up to "God's Judgment" - which appears to be less than man's idea of judgment.
The Scriptures clearly say we can reject the Spirit. Is this not a use of free will? Thus, by NOT rejecting the Spirit, our deeds, our cooperation with the Spirit will be seen as loving and worthy of reward.
you judge God's justice by man's standards, saying that it cannot fall short.
God's standards EXCEEDS man's standards. You seem to say that God's standards do not even REACH man's standards, but that's OK, since God is God, YET, evil is good, justice is injustice, love is selfishness, and all this makes sense because God's ways are not our ways??? This defies any common sense.
Therefore, man sets his own standards, and God's standards are measured against them.
Men don't set the standards. However, we have a good idea of them based on revelation and that God's work in nature mirrors His work in the supernatural. Thus, we are pretty sure that our idea of good is SURPASSED by God, rather than God's idea of good being our idea of EVIL! God doesn't work in opposites, but transcends our understanding. He is BEYOND human mercy. You would have me believe that God's mercy does not even maintain man's idea of mercy!
I do not persevere because I'm not sure if I am of the elect. I persevere because God said so, and a member of the elect wants to obey God.
God said you were of the elect? Do I dare ask how or what Scripture you base this self-determination? I have yet to find your Christian name in the Bible! Is this a tradition? :-)
If the parable had spoken in "communal" terms, using words like "herd" a lot, then you might have something. But it does just the opposite, it specifically speaks of individual sheep.
It does speak of the community. You'd have to go to the Synoptics to find the more individualized message. However, this still does not prove that YOU are one of the individual sheep. Thieves are ALSO in the sheepfold - Christ says so in John 10:1. Only those who hear AND FOLLOW His voice are Christ's sheep. Today, from our point of view.
And I would say that God's Church is composed of all of God's elect, all believers, no matter their individual denominations, if any. So, every time I disagree with the "Church" I mean the RCC, since I know that to you God's Church and the RCC are one in the same. My, opposite, attitude is that I don't think you need to be a Protestant to be a member of God's Church.
God's Church is only the elect? Is that what you are saying? The Bible would disagree with that over and over again...Only the angels during harvest time will select out who is the wheat and who is the weed - AND THE WEEDS WILL BE BURNT! There is no "lesser rewards" for those who are "in" the Church but are weeds...
No, I would admit that being a Protestant is not a necessity to being part of God's Church!!! That is pretty laughable! However, I haven't said that one must be Roman Catholic formally, either.
Presumption also goes both ways. Your hierarchy presumes to speak for God, presumes exclusive ownership of God's Church, and presumes to rewrite the Bible in order to conform to Tradition.
The presumption is based on eyewitness testimony, as the beginning of 1 John opens: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life (for the life is manifested, and we also saw [it] and bear witness and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father and appeared unto us); that which we have seen and heard we declare unto you, that ye also may have communion with us; and truly our communion [is] with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be fulfilled" 1 John 1:1-4
If you believe that the Scriptures are from God, then you'd be hard pressed to deny that the Church is NOT from God! You can't have one while denying the other.
Regards
Sure, if we can choose to sin, it follows that we can choose not to sin. Therefore, between two saved people, the one who chooses to sin "less" might very well have a greater reward in heaven.
God's standards EXCEEDS man's standards. You seem to say that God's standards do not even REACH man's standards, but that's OK, since God is God, YET, evil is good, justice is injustice, love is selfishness, and all this makes sense because God's ways are not our ways??? This defies any common sense.
Man's justice says it is perfectly fine for a woman to murder her baby. God's does not, it holds the opposite view. So is this what you call God exceeding man's justice? I call this a different sense of justice altogether. God is not exceeding, He is restricting. ... I do not know what you mean at the end.
Thus, we are pretty sure that our idea of good is SURPASSED by God, rather than God's idea of good being our idea of EVIL! God doesn't work in opposites, but transcends our understanding.
Man says it is good for a mother to be able to kill her baby. God says the opposite. Man says that it is good to tolerate and accept homosexuality. God says the opposite. Man says that pornography is free speech and should be protected. God says the opposite. Man says that it is good that people should be prevented from praying out loud in public. God says the opposite.
You would have me believe that God's mercy does not even maintain man's idea of mercy!
Man's idea of mercy is for one man to euthenize another. Man's idea of mercy is to allow a woman to kill her baby if she would be depressed by having her. Man's idea of mercy is giving child rapists light sentences.
God said you were of the elect? Do I dare ask how or what Scripture you base this self-determination?
I don't have anything new, just the same boatload of assurance verses that Catholicism either rejects or interprets beyond all recognition.
God's Church is only the elect? Is that what you are saying? The Bible would disagree with that over and over again...Only the angels during harvest time will select out who is the wheat and who is the weed - AND THE WEEDS WILL BE BURNT!
Yes, that's what I'm saying. God's Church is the full community of true believers. What does the Bible have against that? (I skipped talking about John 10 because I'm almost certain I just did that in a recent post to you on another line. If not, just let me know.)
What is this about angels selecting who is the wheat?
If you believe that the Scriptures are from God, then you'd be hard pressed to deny that the Church is NOT from God! You can't have one while denying the other.
I do believe that God's Church comes from God. However, I saw nothing in 1 John 1:1-4 that implied that Popes can make infallible declarations from God, or that a priest today can forgive sins.