Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: jo kus; Kolokotronis; kosta50; annalex; Agrarian
[On some being graced more than others, and spiritual gifts:] It would be impossible to say that a bishop has been given "more" of anything, just different gifts. God can give gifts, but does man always use them?

I was specifically thinking in the area of discernment. Since I do not agree patently with everything that Calvin and Luther said, I cannot say that their gifts of discernment were better on every issue than "all Protestants". However, I could say that in general terms their gifts of discernment were greater than mine. I mean, I "could" have studied all the languages and read the texts to the degree they did, but I really doubt that I would have come up with writings as profound as theirs. For me, it would be the same with medicine or rocket science. I could try with all my might, but it wouldn't "happen".

Likewise, there were Bishop Fathers who wrote things that you would not agree with, and so their gifts were not wholly better. However, since you do agree with many of their other writings, would you not say that, in general, they had a higher level of this gift? Why else would these Saints be held up so high? Are you saying that these Fathers, and all Popes, etc., were the only ones to accept the gifts from God that were available to everyone? That doesn't seem to match the human experience.

6,977 posted on 05/22/2006 1:14:02 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6810 | View Replies ]


To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; annalex; Agrarian
I was specifically thinking in the area of discernment. Since I do not agree patently with everything that Calvin and Luther said, I cannot say that their gifts of discernment were better on every issue than "all Protestants". However, I could say that in general terms their gifts of discernment were greater than mine. I mean, I "could" have studied all the languages and read the texts to the degree they did, but I really doubt that I would have come up with writings as profound as theirs. For me, it would be the same with medicine or rocket science. I could try with all my might, but it wouldn't "happen".

I think you are confusing a gift of the Holy Spirit, discernment, with a human ability, say, knowledge and ability to read foreign languages. The two are NOT the same thing. The former is from the Spirit, a supernatural gift, not dependent on the intellectual level of the recipient. The most profound writings have often come from the simplest of people - I believe our Orthodox friends would comply with that. Discernment, while aided by our natural gifts of intellect, is not dependent upon them. It is the Spirit that gives life - and light - to whom He wills. To the Church, He has promised to infallibly guide it. He does this through the Bishops and the Magesterium.

However, since you do agree with many of their other writings, would you not say that, in general, they had a higher level of this gift? Why else would these Saints be held up so high?

One of the "requirements" of being considered a "Church Father" was holiness. Holiness not only from the level of their writings, but in their actions. This made their writings more authoritative. One must experience the Risen Lord to write about Him! Many Bible "scholars" are quite knowledgeable about the Scriptures in the natural sense. But by not praying them daily, they often miss the deeper spiritual meanings that the Church Fathers were able to mine and deliver to the people. It was the gift of the Holy Spirit during prayer (Lectio Divina, esp.) that enabled them to discern the Spirit in the Scriptures.

Regards

6,983 posted on 05/22/2006 5:27:02 AM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6977 | View Replies ]

To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; annalex; jo kus; Kolokotronis

From an Orthodox perspective, all grace involves synergia. There are certain ways in which grace is absolutely imparted to someone -- as in the Mysteries of the Church. But they, too, involve synergia. One must voluntarily submit to these Mysteries.

Most relevant to what you are talking about are the services that involve the ordaining of clergy. Whether it is an altar-boy being blessed to begin serving in the altar, a reader being tonsured, a deacon or priest being ordained, or a bishop being consecrated, there are gifts that come along with that. We understand that these gifts are generally two-fold -- one is the grace to do what one is being set apart to do for the service of the Church, and the other part is that with increasing levels of service to the Church come increased attack from the devil and temptations. If one is not to lose one's salvation in the process of helping others, special grace is needed.

At each point along the way, it is within the person himself as to whether he will apply those gifts properly and humbly, and as to whether he will work to develop those gifts for the good of the Church.

As jo kus says, there are particular gifts of different kinds (knack for languages, natural speaking ability, the ability to talk to people one-on-one in a way that brings help and healing, the ability to sing) that are things one is born with -- but even those can be developed or squandered at the discretion of the individual.

There exists, both within and without this formal sacramental structure, the multitude of gifts spoken about in the Scriptures, including discernment. There are laymen (both monastics and in the world) who possess these gifts to great extents that sometimes exceed those of any clergy. Some of the greatest spiritual fathers in the history of Orthodoxy were never so much as tonsured to be a reader, let alone ordained. But they never presumed to act sacramentally!

There is a separate issue that does not involve service to the Church as such, and that is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit -- theosis. On this personal matter of salvation, there is no difference between people. All have equal access to the saving grace of Christ. There are those who have achieved great holiness and sainthood who were not apparently given any specific gifts for serving others (although their prayers probably help uphold the entire Church.)

There are others who are ordained, who bring life, health, and healing to others -- but who themselves will end up in a state of separation from God. (Consider Kolokotronis' icon of the Ladder) We see this in Scripture, where the high priest speaks prophetically *because of his office* when he says that it is better for one man to die for all the people. Yet he is conspiring to murder Christ!

So yes, I would definitely say that the Fathers were more grace-filled than I ever will be. It is the result of their obedience to God and submission to his will -- their acting in syngergia with God. My wife and I met a Serbian bishop who I believe is probably a saint himself. I can't reproduce his exact words, and can't do them justice, but he essentially said this to us: Do you know what makes the saints different from everyone else? It is simply that they actually take their faith seriously -- they believe it and live their lives as though it is true. We so often say we believe, but our actions say that we don't really believe it to be true. If we did, we would take it seriously.

Synergia involves taking deadly seriously the idea that what the Church teaches is true, and that aligning ones thoughts, heart, and body with the will of God will bring us to life, health and salvation.... and discernment, as much of it as we need to save our souls and help those whom God intends for us to help. God does not call all to do everything -- the process by which he puts things in front of us to do is a great mystery. What is not a mystery is that he intends for us to do them, and that he will give us the ability to do them if we act in accordance with his will.


7,014 posted on 05/22/2006 2:18:12 PM PDT by Agrarian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6977 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson