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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; annalex; jo kus; Kolokotronis

From an Orthodox perspective, all grace involves synergia. There are certain ways in which grace is absolutely imparted to someone -- as in the Mysteries of the Church. But they, too, involve synergia. One must voluntarily submit to these Mysteries.

Most relevant to what you are talking about are the services that involve the ordaining of clergy. Whether it is an altar-boy being blessed to begin serving in the altar, a reader being tonsured, a deacon or priest being ordained, or a bishop being consecrated, there are gifts that come along with that. We understand that these gifts are generally two-fold -- one is the grace to do what one is being set apart to do for the service of the Church, and the other part is that with increasing levels of service to the Church come increased attack from the devil and temptations. If one is not to lose one's salvation in the process of helping others, special grace is needed.

At each point along the way, it is within the person himself as to whether he will apply those gifts properly and humbly, and as to whether he will work to develop those gifts for the good of the Church.

As jo kus says, there are particular gifts of different kinds (knack for languages, natural speaking ability, the ability to talk to people one-on-one in a way that brings help and healing, the ability to sing) that are things one is born with -- but even those can be developed or squandered at the discretion of the individual.

There exists, both within and without this formal sacramental structure, the multitude of gifts spoken about in the Scriptures, including discernment. There are laymen (both monastics and in the world) who possess these gifts to great extents that sometimes exceed those of any clergy. Some of the greatest spiritual fathers in the history of Orthodoxy were never so much as tonsured to be a reader, let alone ordained. But they never presumed to act sacramentally!

There is a separate issue that does not involve service to the Church as such, and that is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit -- theosis. On this personal matter of salvation, there is no difference between people. All have equal access to the saving grace of Christ. There are those who have achieved great holiness and sainthood who were not apparently given any specific gifts for serving others (although their prayers probably help uphold the entire Church.)

There are others who are ordained, who bring life, health, and healing to others -- but who themselves will end up in a state of separation from God. (Consider Kolokotronis' icon of the Ladder) We see this in Scripture, where the high priest speaks prophetically *because of his office* when he says that it is better for one man to die for all the people. Yet he is conspiring to murder Christ!

So yes, I would definitely say that the Fathers were more grace-filled than I ever will be. It is the result of their obedience to God and submission to his will -- their acting in syngergia with God. My wife and I met a Serbian bishop who I believe is probably a saint himself. I can't reproduce his exact words, and can't do them justice, but he essentially said this to us: Do you know what makes the saints different from everyone else? It is simply that they actually take their faith seriously -- they believe it and live their lives as though it is true. We so often say we believe, but our actions say that we don't really believe it to be true. If we did, we would take it seriously.

Synergia involves taking deadly seriously the idea that what the Church teaches is true, and that aligning ones thoughts, heart, and body with the will of God will bring us to life, health and salvation.... and discernment, as much of it as we need to save our souls and help those whom God intends for us to help. God does not call all to do everything -- the process by which he puts things in front of us to do is a great mystery. What is not a mystery is that he intends for us to do them, and that he will give us the ability to do them if we act in accordance with his will.


7,014 posted on 05/22/2006 2:18:12 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Agrarian
Do you know what makes the saints different from everyone else? It is simply that they actually take their faith seriously -- they believe it and live their lives as though it is true. We so often say we believe, but our actions say that we don't really believe it to be true. If we did, we would take it seriously

Beautiful.

7,019 posted on 05/22/2006 4:02:34 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Agrarian; kosta50
My wife and I met a Serbian bishop who I believe is probably a saint himself. I can't reproduce his exact words, and can't do them justice, but he essentially said this to us: Do you know what makes the saints different from everyone else? It is simply that they actually take their faith seriously

Many spiritual writers say the same thing. The only thing that keeps us from being saints in the formal sense is our lack of will. God provides everything we need. It is our refusal on even the smallest of scale that keeps us from being "saintly".

Regards

7,020 posted on 05/22/2006 4:37:16 PM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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To: Agrarian
So yes, I would definitely say that the Fathers were more grace-filled than I ever will be. It is the result of their obedience to God and submission to his will -- their acting in syngergia with God.

Thanks for your answer. It makes sense to me that grace can work that way. I believe I have "blown" chances at grace that I may have had but for my disobedience. ... And, I really like what the bishop said. Belief is taking it seriously.

7,218 posted on 05/26/2006 3:35:44 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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