You are missing the point! First, you deny that man can do ANYTHING - then you expect man to choose NOT to sin??? How is this possible?
No, I doubt I have ever said anything like "man can't do anything". I let it slide in the last post, but if you are going to keep repeating it, then I have to correct you. I might very well have said something like "man can't do anything good on his own", but that is very different from what you are saying here.
Either God graces man, leading man to be able to choose God - and thus making sense of perseverance, OR God demands that man do something that man cannot do - and injustly condemns said man for not being able to fulfill something he could NEVER do unaided! You can't have it both ways - God does everything/man is responsible!!!
LOL! I don't need to have it both of these ways, because neither is true, and I have never said otherwise. I believe that God does grace His elect, and they WILL choose God, all of them. This is much stronger than God simply making a man able. This is also indicative of a much stronger "God", since this God goes out and positively "gets" His beloved children. This God does not peek at an answer sheet and simply go with the results.
As I have said before, God does not demand that the non-elect be Godly. He doesn't expect them to be, and neither do I. And, I do not choose to judge God's justice by man's standards, but if you feel that you must do so, then by all means....
Those WHO PERSEVERE in this belief will go to heaven. God expects man's response to continue throughout his life. If you REALLY believe in something, you make it part of your life, not "Lord, Lord" - and "I never knew you"... Those going to heaven are the ones who believe and put their belief into action. Not the ones who merely talk, talk, talk...
Yes, I couldn't agree more. I'm sure this goes back to our different views of what IS "belief" or "faith". If you'll remember, I throw in some side dishes. :)
The "sheep" are God's COMMUNITY, not individuals. When Christ is talking about His sheep, His flock, He is speaking about His Church, the community of faith.
Really? Well, then I was right, we do disagree on who the sheep are. :) If the sheep are not individuals, then what do you make of these passages? :
Matt. 18:12-14 : 12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
Luke 15: 3-7 : 3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Yes, it's the same story, but based on these you still think that the sheep that the Father gave to Christ were not individuals? I have no idea why you would even make a distinction between all individuals who are of God's elect, and one group of "God's Church", which I can only assume is 99% Roman Catholic and Orthodox. Perhaps that is the reason.
One of the worse sins is religious pride. I see this sin quite clearly in the attitude that "God has saved me and I am going to heaven".
I think it is very telling that you see this simple statement as an actual sin. I would say that to not be able to say this is to lack faith and trust in God and His word. I guess it goes both ways.
Well, according to your posts, you say that man does nothing to cooperate towards his salvation. Thus, he cannot do anything good, according to you, even as a regenerated Christian abiding in Christ. If I misunderstand your point, it is because you have failed to explain exactly how man is responsible and will be held accountable for something he has no power to do - to do good. You have consistently said that man does not cooperate. And now, you say that man can NOT choose sin? Well, which is it?
I believe that God does grace His elect, and they WILL choose God, all of them. This is much stronger than God simply making a man able. This is also indicative of a much stronger "God", since this God goes out and positively "gets" His beloved children. This God does not peek at an answer sheet and simply go with the results.
And who wrote the "answer sheet"?
As I have said before, God does not demand that the non-elect be Godly. He doesn't expect them to be, and neither do I. And, I do not choose to judge God's justice by man's standards, but if you feel that you must do so, then by all means....
I sense a condescending tone in your reply... Hmm. The problem is that you don't know who the elect are. Thus, we persevere until the end. If God told you that you are of the elect and cannot fail, what is the point of Him telling the EVERYONE to persevere? And who is Jesus telling to persevere? God or man?
If the sheep are not individuals, then what do you make of these passages?
Are any of the sheep named "Forest"? It is a parable expressing how willing God is to bring His community to Him.
I have no idea why you would even make a distinction between all individuals who are of God's elect, and one group of "God's Church", which I can only assume is 99% Roman Catholic and Orthodox. Perhaps that is the reason.
Because the Church is not a disembodied, invisible group of individuals spread throughout the world. It is a visible entity, one that people can go to and point out and say "Look, the Body of Christ". If you are of the Church, it is to the degree that you share the Catholic faith.
I said : One of the worse sins is religious pride. I see this sin quite clearly in the attitude that "God has saved me and I am going to heaven".
You responded :I think it is very telling that you see this simple statement as an actual sin. I would say that to not be able to say this is to lack faith and trust in God and His word. I guess it goes both ways
Jesus saw the same attitude in the Pharisees...What was His attitude towards them? I am sorry, but Christ didn't think too highly of presumptuous behavior.
Regards