Well, according to your posts, you say that man does nothing to cooperate towards his salvation. Thus, he cannot do anything good, according to you, even as a regenerated Christian abiding in Christ. If I misunderstand your point, it is because you have failed to explain exactly how man is responsible and will be held accountable for something he has no power to do - to do good. You have consistently said that man does not cooperate. And now, you say that man can NOT choose sin? Well, which is it?
I believe that God does grace His elect, and they WILL choose God, all of them. This is much stronger than God simply making a man able. This is also indicative of a much stronger "God", since this God goes out and positively "gets" His beloved children. This God does not peek at an answer sheet and simply go with the results.
And who wrote the "answer sheet"?
As I have said before, God does not demand that the non-elect be Godly. He doesn't expect them to be, and neither do I. And, I do not choose to judge God's justice by man's standards, but if you feel that you must do so, then by all means....
I sense a condescending tone in your reply... Hmm. The problem is that you don't know who the elect are. Thus, we persevere until the end. If God told you that you are of the elect and cannot fail, what is the point of Him telling the EVERYONE to persevere? And who is Jesus telling to persevere? God or man?
If the sheep are not individuals, then what do you make of these passages?
Are any of the sheep named "Forest"? It is a parable expressing how willing God is to bring His community to Him.
I have no idea why you would even make a distinction between all individuals who are of God's elect, and one group of "God's Church", which I can only assume is 99% Roman Catholic and Orthodox. Perhaps that is the reason.
Because the Church is not a disembodied, invisible group of individuals spread throughout the world. It is a visible entity, one that people can go to and point out and say "Look, the Body of Christ". If you are of the Church, it is to the degree that you share the Catholic faith.
I said : One of the worse sins is religious pride. I see this sin quite clearly in the attitude that "God has saved me and I am going to heaven".
You responded :I think it is very telling that you see this simple statement as an actual sin. I would say that to not be able to say this is to lack faith and trust in God and His word. I guess it goes both ways
Jesus saw the same attitude in the Pharisees...What was His attitude towards them? I am sorry, but Christ didn't think too highly of presumptuous behavior.
Regards
I have said that man does not cooperate with his salvation. But this does not mean that AFTER salvation he is unable to do good. After what I call salvation, God has enabled man to do good in His eyes for the first time. Any misunderstanding is probably due to the God's POV vs. man's POV issue.
I will say again that from man's POV, he can do nothing "good" before salvation. After salvation, man is able to choose to do good, or able to choose to sin. OTOH, from God's POV, all good comes from God, so He gets all the credit and glory for causing all the good we do after salvation. From God's POV, men are still free to sin. When I responded as I did, I assumed you were only talking about doing good, so I did not address the sin side. I believe that I have always said that man is free to sin, but I wasn't sure if you thought that counted as "doing" something.
We have discussed the responsibility and expectation issues at length. I'm not sure what else I can add, but if you have a specific new question, I'll be happy to try to answer.
And who wrote the "answer sheet"?
I would have said I thought your answer would be "fate", based on the other line, but that might be changing. I'll wait to see your response there.
I sense a condescending tone in your reply... Hmm. The problem is that you don't know who the elect are. Thus, we persevere until the end. If God told you that you are of the elect and cannot fail, what is the point of Him telling the EVERYONE to persevere? And who is Jesus telling to persevere? God or man?
I'm sorry if I sounded that way, but it was not my intent. I genuinely take from your answers that you judge God's justice by man's standards, saying that it cannot fall short. You have said this, yes? Therefore, man sets his own standards, and God's standards are measured against them. God's cannot fall short of man's. I have said why I disagree, that they are different standards altogether.
I do not persevere because I'm not sure if I am of the elect. I persevere because God said so, and a member of the elect wants to obey God. I don't see how God is telling EVERYONE, including the lost to persevere. The lost cannot do any good in God's eyes, so they cannot persevere. On who is actually persevering, it can be answered either way, depending on the POV.
Are any of the sheep named "Forest"? It is a parable expressing how willing God is to bring His community to Him.
Yes, one sheep is named Forest. "BAAAAAAA!" See? :) If the parable had spoken in "communal" terms, using words like "herd" a lot, then you might have something. But it does just the opposite, it specifically speaks of individual sheep.
If you are of the Church, it is to the degree that you share the Catholic faith.
And I would say that God's Church is composed of all of God's elect, all believers, no matter their individual denominations, if any. So, every time I disagree with the "Church" I mean the RCC, since I know that to you God's Church and the RCC are one in the same. My, opposite, attitude is that I don't think you need to be a Protestant to be a member of God's Church.
Jesus saw the same attitude [as FK's] in the Pharisees...What was His attitude towards them? I am sorry, but Christ didn't think too highly of presumptuous behavior.
Presumption also goes both ways. Your hierarchy presumes to speak for God, presumes exclusive ownership of God's Church, and presumes to rewrite the Bible in order to conform to Tradition.