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To: Forest Keeper
So Mary is the singular wife of God?

Who ever said that?

It seems to me that Joseph was being more than a good sport about all this. :) I don't understand why he is denied.

MAYBE they didn't have Viagra back then... Sex isn't one of those "things to do" when you are 70 years old, especially if the GIRL took a vow of virginity.

Well, so could the Temple if that's where she came from! Why couldn't Jesus have grown up in the Temple, just like His mother did?

You are trying to rationalize the faith, again. Why did Christ become a man? Why did Christ die on a cross? Why is there air??? Who knows the mind of God. One can ascertain many reasons for Jesus growing up in the situation that He did, rather than being raised within the Temple.

My problem is that it does not appear to match scripture.

Does the Bible say that Joseph and Mary had sex? Don't you find Mary's reply to the angel strange? Why wouldn't it be like Hannah, if Mary was just an ordinary, betrothed woman about to enter into a sexual relationship?

Regards

6,612 posted on 05/14/2006 1:54:20 PM PDT by jo kus (For love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. 1Jn 4:7)
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To: jo kus
Does the Bible say that Joseph and Mary had sex?

Yes.

6,625 posted on 05/14/2006 9:13:26 PM PDT by Full Court (click on my name to see the baby!!)
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To: jo kus; HarleyD; Full Court
FK: "So Mary is the singular wife of God?"

Who ever said that?

You did when you said: "Who is going to have sex with another person's wife? Not a normal person." Who is the other person, if you don't mean God?

MAYBE they didn't have Viagra back then... Sex isn't one of those "things to do" when you are 70 years old, especially if the GIRL took a vow of virginity.

Yes, there certainly are plenty of extra-Biblical "MAYBES" in this whole scenario. Does the Tradition really specify that Joseph was 70? ... And please speak for yourself on "things to do" when we reach 70. :)

Does the Bible say that Joseph and Mary had sex?

Yes, it sure does, and I still don't see why this is the end of the world for you, especially since you appear now NOT to think of Mary as Mrs. God. :)

Don't you find Mary's reply to the angel strange?

No, not at all. Harley and I have both addressed this from slightly different angles, but I think we arrive in basically the same place. My argument is that we know for sure that Mary asked a simple and honest, straightforward question, because that is exactly the response she got. Jesus is a model for this in how He answered questions. Mary asks how can this be since "I AM a virgin" or "I have known not a man". Mary does not say since "I am PLEDGED to be a virgin (forever)". Mary was asking a logical question of mechanics given her (then) current state. Since the passage says that Mary was afraid, naturally so, it makes sense that she would revert back to basics. We all do under stress.

Now, at the time, Mary was still officially betrothed and not yet married. The wedding day was of an indeterminate length away. Another point in support of my contention that the angel meant and Mary understood that this pregnancy was about to happen SOON is that the angel tells Mary something else very important to this discussion. The angel tells Mary that her relative Elizabeth was already in her sixth month with John the Baptist. Now we know that JTB jumps in the womb at the presence of Jesus in Mary's womb. That leaves an absolute maximum window of three months for Mary to be pregnant after the visit from the angel. This was not some long-term prediction.

Why wouldn't it be like Hannah, if Mary was just an ordinary, betrothed woman about to enter into a sexual relationship?

I don't understand your comparison between Hannah and Mary. Hannah prayed hard for a baby, and God granted her request. Mary was not praying for a baby and was in an entirely different situation. Mary was about to conceive supernaturally, and be subject to public ridicule, the scorn and disgust of her betrothed, and perhaps even her own death by stoning. It seems only "just" of God to give her a heads up. :) She would have been in agony and torment otherwise, and for doing no wrong. These situations have nothing to do with each other.

6,834 posted on 05/18/2006 3:03:18 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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