Then I shouldn't call a driver's licence a "driver's license". To the possesor of the license (or Christ's abiding presence), it grants that person particular abilities as duly noted. As I have noted from Scripture quotes, "eternal life", in John's writings, normally refers to Christ's abiding presence - which is subject to leaving when we sin. This much is clear in many Scripture verses, such as :
"Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, [then] we have confidence in God; and whatsoever we ask, we receive of him because we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he has commanded us. And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And in this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us." 1 John 3:21-24
Once we have achieved heaven, this abiding presence is no longer subject to being lost - and thus, it does become our permanent status. This understanding is much more in line with Scriptures then "well, for the last 20 years, you never had it to begin with..." What a crock. Either you do or you do NOT have abiding presence. It is silly to claim "well, you fell away, so you never had eternal life to begin with".
God is commanding/encouraging us to not choose to sin, which we can always do.
You are missing the point! First, you deny that man can do ANYTHING - then you expect man to choose NOT to sin??? How is this possible? Either God graces man, leading man to be able to choose God - and thus making sense of perseverence, OR God demands that man do something that man cannot do - and injustly condemns said man for not being able to fulfill something he could NEVER do unaided! You can't have it both ways - God does everything/man is responsible!!!
This is directly related to our discussion on what "eternal" means. To me, once a ticket is punched, that's it, the ticket has a hole in it, and it is a permanent hole.
A fine analogy, IF ANYONE ACTUALLY RECEIVED A TICKET! No one does. That's the problem with this analogy. We can NEVER know we will persevere, from our point of view. Thus, there IS NO visible means for man to know we will die in grace.
God doesn't promise that we will never get sick again, He promises that those who believe will go to heaven.
Those WHO PERSEVERE in this belief will go to heaven. God expects man's response to continue throughout his life. If you REALLY believe in something, you make it part of your life, not "Lord, Lord" - and "I never knew you"... Those going to heaven are the ones who believe and put their belief into action. Not the ones who merely talk, talk, talk...
"My little children, let us not love in word neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth." 1 John 3:18
I know you've never said the elect can be lost, but I thought that we disagreed on who the sheep were
Another misinterpretation. The "sheep" are God's COMMUNITY, not individuals. When Christ is talking about His sheep, His flock, He is speaking about His Church, the community of faith. Christ doesn't speak about salvation coming to those who sit down and read the Bible for themselves. God doesn't promise individuals salvation outside of this flock.
OK, when I said "God promises to fix US", I should have said "God promises to fix His elect". Is that better? :) God promises to fix ANYONE who turns to Him. In the end, those who DID turn to God and died in such a state of grace were on God's elect list the whole time. There is no point in trying to put yourself on this list - we just will never know and is presumption. One of the worse sins is religious pride. I see this sin quite clearly in the attitude that "God has saved me and I am going to heaven". The Scriptures are full of verses that talk about God desiring that men turn to Him and He would forgive them of sin. From man's point of view, salvation is available to ALL men.
Regards
You are missing the point! First, you deny that man can do ANYTHING - then you expect man to choose NOT to sin??? How is this possible?
No, I doubt I have ever said anything like "man can't do anything". I let it slide in the last post, but if you are going to keep repeating it, then I have to correct you. I might very well have said something like "man can't do anything good on his own", but that is very different from what you are saying here.
Either God graces man, leading man to be able to choose God - and thus making sense of perseverance, OR God demands that man do something that man cannot do - and injustly condemns said man for not being able to fulfill something he could NEVER do unaided! You can't have it both ways - God does everything/man is responsible!!!
LOL! I don't need to have it both of these ways, because neither is true, and I have never said otherwise. I believe that God does grace His elect, and they WILL choose God, all of them. This is much stronger than God simply making a man able. This is also indicative of a much stronger "God", since this God goes out and positively "gets" His beloved children. This God does not peek at an answer sheet and simply go with the results.
As I have said before, God does not demand that the non-elect be Godly. He doesn't expect them to be, and neither do I. And, I do not choose to judge God's justice by man's standards, but if you feel that you must do so, then by all means....
Those WHO PERSEVERE in this belief will go to heaven. God expects man's response to continue throughout his life. If you REALLY believe in something, you make it part of your life, not "Lord, Lord" - and "I never knew you"... Those going to heaven are the ones who believe and put their belief into action. Not the ones who merely talk, talk, talk...
Yes, I couldn't agree more. I'm sure this goes back to our different views of what IS "belief" or "faith". If you'll remember, I throw in some side dishes. :)
The "sheep" are God's COMMUNITY, not individuals. When Christ is talking about His sheep, His flock, He is speaking about His Church, the community of faith.
Really? Well, then I was right, we do disagree on who the sheep are. :) If the sheep are not individuals, then what do you make of these passages? :
Matt. 18:12-14 : 12 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
Luke 15: 3-7 : 3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Yes, it's the same story, but based on these you still think that the sheep that the Father gave to Christ were not individuals? I have no idea why you would even make a distinction between all individuals who are of God's elect, and one group of "God's Church", which I can only assume is 99% Roman Catholic and Orthodox. Perhaps that is the reason.
One of the worse sins is religious pride. I see this sin quite clearly in the attitude that "God has saved me and I am going to heaven".
I think it is very telling that you see this simple statement as an actual sin. I would say that to not be able to say this is to lack faith and trust in God and His word. I guess it goes both ways.