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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; annalex; jo kus

"For example, I noted him saying "Thus, according to St. Paul, creation as it is is not what God intended it to be— ...". You know what kind of buttons that presses with me. :)"

In fact, FK, that is precisely the Orthodox theology. God created us for theosis, but gave us divine attributes, among them free will, which the angels also possess. The misuse of that free will lead to the Evil One and his rule over the Earth with his parasitical existence in creation as well as to the Fall. For this reason we can say that mankind, indeed all of creation, has a perfect nature which has become distorted. The fact that things turned out other than, for now, as God intended does not limit His sovereignty; it merely recognizes His willingness and purpose in allowing us our freedom.

"It seemed to me that his idea was to peg satan with the blame for man's sin as sort of the Orthodox version of, or response to, the doctrine of original sin. I.e., man sins because of satan, not because of Adam."

Well, sort of. Fr. John is most definitely describing the Orthodox theology on what the West calls Original Sin. An understanding of this theology is fundamental to an understanding of Orthodox theology in general and in particular why it is so very different, while often appearing the same, or nearly the same, from the theology of the West. Think about what Fr. John writes here and see how it fits in with the Orthodox concept of theosis and then compare that with the Western notions of "salvation". I think you'll see that there is an ontological difference between these concepts and that the root of that difference lies in differing ways of looking at the Sin of Adam.

Now as for the Evil One being to blame for the Fall, well, yes he is, but both Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to eat the fruit, but they did it anyway. They were the authors of their own fall. The fact that the Evil One played a part doesn't get them, or us, a pass.


4,512 posted on 04/10/2006 1:47:07 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; annalex; jo kus
... The misuse of that free will lead to the Evil One and his rule over the Earth with his parasitical existence in creation as well as to the Fall. For this reason we can say that mankind, indeed all of creation, has a perfect nature which has become distorted.

I suppose when I think of "perfection" in a person, I think of someone impervious to distortion. Jesus was perfect. That's why I do not think it was even possible for Him to sin. Of course God "can" do whatever He wants, but He tells us clearly that He would never choose to sin, else He would not be God. He would instead be the thing He hates.

Now as for the Evil One being to blame for the Fall, well, yes he is, but both Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to eat the fruit, but they did it anyway. They were the authors of their own fall. The fact that the Evil One played a part doesn't get them, or us, a pass.

This sounds pretty similar to the argument I've been making to Kosta about the difference between God's ordinance and who is the author of sin. I have been saying that while God ordains all things for His purposes, we are still the authors of our own sin. We do not get a pass just because God ordained it. (I'm not saying you would agree with me in substance here, I'm just comparing the types of argument.)

4,585 posted on 04/11/2006 1:03:01 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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