The Pharisees didn't believe in the "correct" God??? Was there another God that gave Moses the ten commandments? I thought the God of the Old Testament was the same as the God of the New Testament - but more revealed through the ministry of Jesus Christ. The Pharisees believed in God, but their understanding of Him and His Law was not complete. It was corrupted on account of man-made traditions (such as Corban). They conducted religious deeds for the sake of pride, rather than humble worship of God. But they certainly believed in the "same" God. I think Jesus expected more from the Pharisees because of the knowledge that God had already given them. And their faith certainly was lacking. They trusted in themselves, rather than in God. It was a loveless faith.
True and God-given faith must be in Christ.
So Elijah's faith was worthless because it was not in Jesus Christ? Moses? David?
I have acknowledged many times your saying that you believe that we do nothing good on our own, however, I still see that you give man individual credit. Free will demands this.
That's the message of Scripture. We will be judged based on what WE do - in Christ. We won't be judged on making a one-time proclamation.
Those God chooses will be saved.
There's the "either/or" again. God made man in His image. We, like God, have free will. I don't see how this interferes with an all-powerful God's sovereignty. God's WILL is that we freely come to Him. When we say God "chooses" those He saves, He certain foresees our responses and grants us more graces to guide us along the way. But giving us graces does not destroy our free will. God's choice does not destroy man's free will. We don't KNOW what God's choices are! Thus, when we appear before our Lord and Savior, we will know whether God chose us all along - and we will see we freely chose Him.
I don't agree that God pines for us
WOW! That explains your concept of God... Clearly, you are missing the greatest theme of Scripture - God's love for mankind. Have you read the Song of Songs?
Why would He if He already knows the outcome?
So when you made the "offer she couldn't refuse" to your wife, you didn't pine for her - even though you "knew" she couldn't refuse? Hmm. I have no further questions, your honor...
I would put it in the same category as God asking Adam where he was because He didn't know. Jesus is teaching us what the non-elect look like, just as He teaches us what the elect do look like.
I suppose this derives from your view of God towards us. Rather than a loving God who cares for us and "waits for us by the road - seeing us from a distance" (Prodigal Son), you would have God a God who happily condemns to eternal hell-fire randomly chosen people or a God who is insecure about giving anyone any sort of credit (though He credits people with righteousness throughout Scriptures). God asked Adam where he was to draw out from Adam his mistake - to confess it and ask forgiveness. That's what people desire to hear - when they are in love...
So, a person can falsely claim faith, but still really have true faith? I still don't understand what you say faith does and does not include (i.e. love, etc.), where it comes from, and how much credit man deserves for his cooperation in his faith.
Well, then here is something simpler. Does faith include obedience to God's Will?
No, a person cannot be saved without love. I don't say "faith alone - without works of love"
OK. So far so good. Now. At what point does this "faith" become "faith with love", in other words, saving faith? You yourself admit that your initial faith was not 'saving faith', and thus, must not have had a sufficient amount of love. At what point does this faith become "sufficient" to save? Is it at the point of declaration? But if so, how can it have love? It appears to me that love is something acquired through experience, through action, through using the gifts God has given us - not something that is declared.
But you are separating the two because you hold that it is possible to have faith without love.
James and Paul do...So does Jesus. I believe John does, as well. It seems there are ample Scripture verses that discuss the difference between faith alone and faith with love.
I think you'll say that God has something to do with faith, but as to love, you seem to put that all on man's choices
Without God, we can do neither. That would be like saying to your kid - "Build me a Lego building" and then not give him any Legos. What good is that request? Does God do the same with us? Does He ask us to obey His commandments, and then not give us the ability to do it? From what I hear, that is exactly your idea of God - to the "un-elect"...
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13
From what I understand on your concept of God, He will refuse this to anyone not on His "list". God, from what I can tell, will NOT give gifts to certain people, unlike the evil man who does?????
This is why your view of God is very strange and foreign to me. It doesn't match with Scriptures.
Regards
Yes. The Christian God is the same God of the OT and the NT. There is one Godhead composed of three distinct persons. The Pharisees did not believe in this God, and pro-actively REJECTED this God. It was more than just not understanding.
They [Pharisees] trusted in themselves, rather than in God. It was a loveless faith.
I still think the term "loveless faith" is an oxymoron. :)
So Elijah's faith was worthless because it was not in Jesus Christ? Moses? David?
Those of faith in the OT looked forward to the Messiah, whereas we look backward. The OT prophecies of the coming of Jesus were clear and those who had faith believed in them. Moses and David both wrote about Jesus, so how could they not have faith in Him?
FK: "I have acknowledged many times your saying that you believe that we do nothing good on our own, however, I still see that you give man individual credit. Free will demands this."
That's the message of Scripture. We will be judged based on what WE do - in Christ. We won't be judged on making a one-time proclamation.
OK, FINALLY. :) I have been waiting to hear it "officially". You are saying that man deserves some credit for his own salvation. That's all I need to know.
We, like God, have free will. I don't see how this interferes with an all-powerful God's sovereignty. God's WILL is that we freely come to Him.
You make my argument for me. If God's WILL is that we freely come to Him, then by definition man has the power to thwart God's will. THAT interferes with an all-powerful God's sovereignty.
FK: "I don't agree that God pines for us."
WOW! That explains your concept of God... Clearly, you are missing the greatest theme of Scripture - God's love for mankind. Have you read the Song of Songs?
I believe in an omnipotent God. Such a God does not "Hope" we will make a good decision. Such a God makes the decisions Himself. That is why God does love His elect. God leaves nothing to chance. Why do you think God compares us to sheep? Sheep are among the DUMBEST animals God ever created. Left to their own devices, sheep will literally eat themselves to death! What does that tell you? He is showing us that we are helpless on our own and need a Good Shepherd to lead us. Sheep do not use their free will to belong to the flock, the Shepherd chooses them.
... you would have God a God who happily condemns to eternal hell-fire randomly chosen people or a God who is insecure about giving anyone any sort of credit (though He credits people with righteousness throughout Scriptures).
You place a duty on God that does not exist. You would have the potter having to justify to His creations why He made them as he did. ... Yes, God credits people with righteousness, most notably Abraham. We would disagree on where that faith comes from. I say it comes from God.
Well, then here is something simpler. Does faith include obedience to God's Will?
Yes, true faith includes a new desire to obey God, although a remnant of sin remains so we are not perfect, even though saved. This is the new nature of a regenerated heart. This is the result of being "born again". (As an aside, I still think the term "born again Christian" is redundant.)
At what point does this "faith" become "faith with love", in other words, saving faith? You yourself admit that your initial faith was not 'saving faith', and thus, must not have had a sufficient amount of love. At what point does this faith become "sufficient" to save? Is it at the point of declaration? But if so, how can it have love? It appears to me that love is something acquired through experience, through action, through using the gifts God has given us - not something that is declared.
I don't think I ever said my initial faith was not a saving faith. If anyone asks me today when I was "saved" I would still refer to the Sinner's Prayer I said in high school. I did fall away for a few years, but it wasn't out of a conscious rejection of God, it was out of ignorance. God certainly fixed that when He determined I could handle it. True faith is true faith "plus love" at the beginning. My original love was relatively blind and ignorant, but it was real. It needed to grow and it did. The proof is that I am who I am today. I am sure there are others who said the same prayer I did in high school, and believed they meant it every bit as much as I did, but are now gone forever. God graces, and continues to grace some, but not others.
Does He ask us to obey His commandments, and then not give us the ability to do it? From what I hear, that is exactly your idea of God - to the "un-elect"...
Yes, I can admit that is fair enough. It depends on who the "us" is. I don't think the Bible is meant for the benefit of the non-elect, it is meant for believers, and future believers. God tells us Himself that His word is nonsense to those who do not believe.
From what I understand on your concept of God, He will refuse this to anyone not on His "list". God, from what I can tell, will NOT give gifts to certain people, unlike the evil man who does?????
You're talking about salvation versus someone feeding his kids. I think it's a completely different thing. I have said, and do maintain that God does pass over those of the non-elect and leaves them to choose their eternal destination based on their natures. Of course God has given certain gifts to the evil, who have then misused them. I just don't think we are talking about the same thing here.
This is why your view of God is very strange and foreign to me. It doesn't match with Scriptures.
Well, my view certainly doesn't match with the Roman Catholic Church's interpretation of scripture. Somehow, I can live with that. :)