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To: Forest Keeper
I'm sorry, what does this mean? {Romans 8:17}

That sharing in Christ's glory is dependent upon our sharing in His suffering. There is a connection between God glorifying us and our action here on earth.

You left out verse 11, (1 Cor 6:9-10) which explains everything. Otherwise, anyone who ever commits any of these sins is doomed FOREVER!

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" 1 Cor 6:11

I really think you need to sit down with the Scriptures and read them. Again, you are wrong. Do you really think that Paul is saying "well, because you were washed of your former sins, you are free to commit the same sins again - and you'll still be saved"? OF COURSE we were washed of our former sins. But that doesn't give us free reign to re-visit those sins. Paul CLEARLY says that "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, etc., will enter the Kingdom of heaven." THOSE WHO ARE CURRENTLY doing these deeds! What makes you think that Christians who return to their former ways will STILL enter the Kingdom? That is ridiculous and is ANTI-Scriptural, even in this plain passage.

Here is another example from Paul on the matter:

"Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do (PRESENT OR FUTURE TENSE!) such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" Gal 5:19-21. Then Paul goes on to compare the FRUIT of the HOLY SPIRIT... "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts (have you crucified your flesh from affections?). If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Gal 5:22-25

And finally:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27

I suppose I am again misunderstanding the clear text??? Seems awfully destructive to this concept that those who are baptized or regenerated CANNOT fall!

This passage says NOTHING about running to a priest for forgiveness. THAT is the literal interpretation of 9-10.

Big deal. It doesn't say that Jesus rose from the dead in this passage, either. What is your point?

I am not sure I am following you. Are you saying that salvation used to be obtained through circumcision?

A person became a member of the people of God through the rite of circumcision. We become Christians through Baptism. In both cases, a person has taken the first step towards union with God - although in Baptism, we are much more greatly blessed, as the Holy Spirit HIMSELF comes to us.

It is true that those among the elect are predestined to be so, which is another reason why we see Baptism as being symbolic of an already completed event. It is complete to "us" at the point of salvation, and we are to be Baptized soon thereafter, if possible, as an obedience to God.

WHY? If God has already predestined you for election, what is the purpose of Baptism - per your theology? Obedience to God? Would this remove you from the elect, then?

I would consider all of these to be "little ones" Biblically speaking.

The "little ones" in Luke's Gospel includes infants in the Greek.

I do not make presumptions about other people. If I fall away seriously, then either God will "touch" me directly, or He will move others to do it.

Or you are never saved to begin with, according to your theology. I have discussed this very same topic with people who "KNEW" they were saved and KNEW it for years. Then, they fell away from the faith. So this "knowledge" they had was false, in retrospect, wasn't it?

"Jo, I'll give you $1,000,000 for you pen, what do you say?" When you say 'YES', you would see this as a free will choice? Kinda sounds like an offer you can't refuse, doesn't it?

And if you got that money through ill-repute, would the situation be the same? I CAN refuse this money. People do it all the time. It is called "principle". Some refuse to accept money, even though they desperately need it. Some would not take it if it was "blood money". Sorry, people are not so willing to dismiss their principles as you seem to believe.

Wow! I really didn't expect to hear that. :) {that God gives His gifts unequally}

This shouldn't be a surprise. Christ Himself tells us this in such places as the Parable of the Talents (Mat 25). God expects us to give EVERYTHING that He gave us BACK TO HIM. Our faith, repentence, desire to love, etc., FREELY. The man who received ONE talent did nothing with what he received - and was prevented from entering the Kingdom. Scary thought for those who are quietists and think that God does everything.

Regards

3,639 posted on 03/16/2006 10:59:34 AM PST by jo kus (I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore CHOOSE life - Deut 30:19)
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper
"I would consider all of these to be "little ones" Biblically speaking."

Not even close, FK. "ta paidia" means "children" and, as Joe points out:

"The "little ones" in Luke's Gospel includes infants in the Greek."

3,654 posted on 03/16/2006 4:24:04 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: jo kus
Do you really think that Paul is saying "well, because you were washed of your former sins, you are free to commit the same sins again - and you'll still be saved"? OF COURSE we were washed of our former sins. But that doesn't give us free reign to re-visit those sins. Paul CLEARLY says that "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, etc., will enter the Kingdom of heaven." THOSE WHO ARE CURRENTLY doing these deeds! What makes you think that Christians who return to their former ways will STILL enter the Kingdom? That is ridiculous and is ANTI-Scriptural, even in this plain passage.

Paul says over and over again, "By no means" shall we go back to our old lives. We must persevere. But I don't take perseverance to mean perfection as you appear to do. I wonder why Paul doesn't back up any of these types of passages with "so run to your priest after any one of these sins or you are lost". Again you make the perfect case for ping-pong justification. Saved one day, lost the next. You appear to say that God doesn't give anything for keeps. He just loans us grace that we must earn through our future deeds to keep. In your example from Galatians, you have Paul damning anyone who ever experiences hate, or anyone who has a few drinks too many now and again. If someone rapes and murders my loved one, and I feel hate, then I have just damned my soul to hell. After justification, it's damnation to them all, UNLESS ... well, Paul never tells us around these passages.

FK: "This passage says NOTHING about running to a priest for forgiveness. THAT is the literal interpretation of 9-10."

Big deal. It doesn't say that Jesus rose from the dead in this passage, either. What is your point?

I just mean that if Paul really is advocating ping-pong salvation, he seems to only give the "ping" side and never the "pong". If that's true, I find that odd.

WHY? If God has already predestined you for election, what is the purpose of Baptism - per your theology? Obedience to God? Would this remove you from the elect, then?

Yes, Baptism is an obedience to God. Jesus tells us to be Baptized, and a regenerated heart wants to obey. But if someone is truly of the elect, then nothing can cost him his salvation, not even the failure to be Baptized. None of us are perfectly obedient to God.

And if you got that money through ill-repute, would the situation be the same? I CAN refuse this money. People do it all the time.

But your added circumstances take it out of an analogy to heaven (something very good). All you do is kill the analogy, you don't address the issue. God's "offer" is nothing like a tainted $1,000,000 :)

3,781 posted on 03/20/2006 12:18:42 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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