IF we indeed share in His sufferings, IN ORDER THAT we may also share in His glory.
I'm sorry, what does this mean? Do you think that we Protestants do not face trials? :) God promises us that we will all face trials. Persevering through these are future included events to the moment of salvation.
Consult 1 Cor 6:9-10, for example, verses written to "saved Christians, heirs of Christ". Seems quite clear by the literal interpretation.
I did consult the passage, and I am amazed that it appears that you would take it this far out of obvious context. Here is the complete thought:
1 Cor. 6:9-11 : 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. [PAST TENSE!] (emphasis added)
You left out verse 11, which explains everything. Otherwise, anyone who ever commits any of these sins is doomed FOREVER! This passage says NOTHING about running to a priest for forgiveness. THAT is the literal interpretation of 9-10.
And Jews, including Jesus, was circumcised at 8 days. Is God now going from a greater to a lesser Covenant by restricting the members of the Church? Also, YOUR faith??? IF faith is a gift (which it is), then why do YOU need to proclaim it to receive Baptism? It is already within you as a seed given by God when He predestined the elect!
I am not sure I am following you. Are you saying that salvation used to be obtained through circumcision? We need to proclaim our faith in order to be Baptized in order to mimic what was done in the Bible. It is true that those among the elect are predestined to be so, which is another reason why we see Baptism as being symbolic of an already completed event. It is complete to "us" at the point of salvation, and we are to be Baptized soon thereafter, if possible, as an obedience to God.
Jesus told the Apostles to not prevent the little ones from coming to Him. But that is what you do by withholding Baptism to someone who makes a faith declaration (which isn't even from them!)
The youngest I have ever seen in my church to get Baptized I think was six years old. All have to be able to demonstrate through a testimony that they understand "the basics". This one did, in spades. It is not uncommon at all to see 8,9, or 10 year-olds do the same in my church. I would consider all of these to be "little ones" Biblically speaking.
FK: "Those who are already saved (already have their inheritance sealed), but have fallen away, will always come back to the Father. He has ordained it."
Saved in who's point of view? The person or God? Since we don't know God's mind, this doesn't help much in "KNOWING" that a 'saved' person will return to God.
Saved from God's POV. I am talking about hypothetically looking at other people. If I see someone I have guessed is saved fall away, I do not know if he will come back, but I will certainly try to be of help in any way I can. That's why I do not make presumptions about other people. If I fall away seriously, then either God will "touch" me directly, or He will move others to do it. Either way, I will be brought back. God says so.
If a person makes a choice where he is not compelled by necessity, it is a free will choice.
Hmmm. That's a new term. What is a choice "compelled by necessity"? Let's say you had a loved one who needed an operation that was very expensive. You didn't have all the money for it, but you thought there was a 50-50 chance you would be able to raise it in time. If I came up to you and said: "Jo, I'll give you $1,000,000 for you pen, what do you say?" When you say 'YES', you would see this as a free will choice? Kinda sounds like an offer you can't refuse, doesn't it?
FK: "The only conclusion, from what you have said, is that God does not love His children equally."
AHH! NOW we're getting somewhere. Yes, that is part of the mystery of God's Providence and election of the predestined. It is apparent that some of God's children will disinherit Him. God loves all humans, but applies His gifts differently to different people. We don't know why.
Wow! I really didn't expect to hear that. :) I developed this idea in other posts subsequent to the one I am responding to now. I can't wait to hear more, when I catch up.
That sharing in Christ's glory is dependent upon our sharing in His suffering. There is a connection between God glorifying us and our action here on earth.
You left out verse 11, (1 Cor 6:9-10) which explains everything. Otherwise, anyone who ever commits any of these sins is doomed FOREVER!
"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" 1 Cor 6:11
I really think you need to sit down with the Scriptures and read them. Again, you are wrong. Do you really think that Paul is saying "well, because you were washed of your former sins, you are free to commit the same sins again - and you'll still be saved"? OF COURSE we were washed of our former sins. But that doesn't give us free reign to re-visit those sins. Paul CLEARLY says that "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, etc., will enter the Kingdom of heaven." THOSE WHO ARE CURRENTLY doing these deeds! What makes you think that Christians who return to their former ways will STILL enter the Kingdom? That is ridiculous and is ANTI-Scriptural, even in this plain passage.
Here is another example from Paul on the matter:
"Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do (PRESENT OR FUTURE TENSE!) such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" Gal 5:19-21. Then Paul goes on to compare the FRUIT of the HOLY SPIRIT... "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts (have you crucified your flesh from affections?). If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Gal 5:22-25
And finally:
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27
I suppose I am again misunderstanding the clear text??? Seems awfully destructive to this concept that those who are baptized or regenerated CANNOT fall!
This passage says NOTHING about running to a priest for forgiveness. THAT is the literal interpretation of 9-10.
Big deal. It doesn't say that Jesus rose from the dead in this passage, either. What is your point?
I am not sure I am following you. Are you saying that salvation used to be obtained through circumcision?
A person became a member of the people of God through the rite of circumcision. We become Christians through Baptism. In both cases, a person has taken the first step towards union with God - although in Baptism, we are much more greatly blessed, as the Holy Spirit HIMSELF comes to us.
It is true that those among the elect are predestined to be so, which is another reason why we see Baptism as being symbolic of an already completed event. It is complete to "us" at the point of salvation, and we are to be Baptized soon thereafter, if possible, as an obedience to God.
WHY? If God has already predestined you for election, what is the purpose of Baptism - per your theology? Obedience to God? Would this remove you from the elect, then?
I would consider all of these to be "little ones" Biblically speaking.
The "little ones" in Luke's Gospel includes infants in the Greek.
I do not make presumptions about other people. If I fall away seriously, then either God will "touch" me directly, or He will move others to do it.
Or you are never saved to begin with, according to your theology. I have discussed this very same topic with people who "KNEW" they were saved and KNEW it for years. Then, they fell away from the faith. So this "knowledge" they had was false, in retrospect, wasn't it?
"Jo, I'll give you $1,000,000 for you pen, what do you say?" When you say 'YES', you would see this as a free will choice? Kinda sounds like an offer you can't refuse, doesn't it?
And if you got that money through ill-repute, would the situation be the same? I CAN refuse this money. People do it all the time. It is called "principle". Some refuse to accept money, even though they desperately need it. Some would not take it if it was "blood money". Sorry, people are not so willing to dismiss their principles as you seem to believe.
Wow! I really didn't expect to hear that. :) {that God gives His gifts unequally}
This shouldn't be a surprise. Christ Himself tells us this in such places as the Parable of the Talents (Mat 25). God expects us to give EVERYTHING that He gave us BACK TO HIM. Our faith, repentence, desire to love, etc., FREELY. The man who received ONE talent did nothing with what he received - and was prevented from entering the Kingdom. Scary thought for those who are quietists and think that God does everything.
Regards