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Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

IF we indeed share in His sufferings, IN ORDER THAT we may also share in His glory.

IF.

If we are children, then we are heirs. I have to assume the Catholic translation would be "If we are children, we MAY BECOME heirs, at some point in the future, which no one except God can know. No child of God is an heir by any means until after death." I suppose this is the plain meaning and intent of the verse? How about this one? :

Simple. We are heirs of God, IF we persevere in Christ, we will receive our reward in heaven - our glory with Christ. As Paul says elsewhere, implied here as well, a person can disinherit HIMSELF from what God has offered. Consult 1 Cor 6:9-10, for example, verses written to "saved Christians, heirs of Christ". Seems quite clear by the literal interpretation.

We are always children of God, but we will not receive our inheritance if we do those things mentioned by Paul that separates us from Christ. (John calls deadly sins)

Babies cannot believe in His name. Yet, you say that they, and any other non-believer who has been Baptized, are still children of God.

And Jews, including Jesus, was circumcised at 8 days. Is God now going from a greater to a lesser Covenant by restricting the members of the Church? Also, YOUR faith??? IF faith is a gift (which it is), then why do YOU need to proclaim it to receive Baptism? It is already within you as a seed given by God when He predestined the elect!

Please remember that the first Christians were preaching to adults - bringing the Gospel to people required that they understood it, so that they would recognize that the Old Covenant was incomplete. Babies cannot make that identification. However, it is understood that parents, by proxy, make such identifications for them. Jesus told the Apostles to not prevent the little ones from coming to Him. But that is what you do by withholding Baptism to someone who makes a faith declaration (which isn't even from them!)

Forgiveness and reconciliation are very good reasons. While the son could not lose his inheritance, he still wanted to be forgiven and be reconciled to his father.

He had lost his inheritance already. Jesus is not speaking about "eternal reward" in this parable.

Those who are already saved (already have their inheritance sealed), but have fallen away, will always come back to the Father. He has ordained it.

Saved in who's point of view? The person or God? Since we don't know God's mind, this doesn't help much in "KNOWING" that a 'saved' person will return to God. "Saved" people are falling away all the time - so much for the self-proclamation of being saved.

For the elect, God will CAUSE something that He knows will turn the man's FREE WILL? How free is that?

If a person makes a choice where he is not compelled by necessity, it is a free will choice. A person can ALWAYS look at famine or any other suffering as something from God meant to call him back, OR as something random or NOT from God - and reject this call. Free will.

By what you said, it appears that God is treating all of His children the same in that He gives them all "famines".

God chastizes His sons to bring them back. Hebrews 11 or 12 I am sure makes that statement (don't have a bible with me). It is our free will attitude towards these chastizements that determines whether we will return to God or not. God doesn't force us, but He certainly guides us and sends graces to us.

The only conclusion, from what you have said, is that God does not love His children equally.

AHH! NOW we're getting somewhere. Yes, that is part of the mystery of God's Providence and election of the predestined. It is apparent that some of God's children will disinherit Him. God loves all humans, but applies His gifts differently to different people. We don't know why.

Regards

[Rom. 8:17] Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

IF we indeed share in His sufferings, IN ORDER THAT we may also share in His glory.

I'm sorry, what does this mean? Do you think that we Protestants do not face trials? :) God promises us that we will all face trials. Persevering through these are future included events to the moment of salvation.

Consult 1 Cor 6:9-10, for example, verses written to "saved Christians, heirs of Christ". Seems quite clear by the literal interpretation.

I did consult the passage, and I am amazed that it appears that you would take it this far out of obvious context. Here is the complete thought:

1 Cor. 6:9-11 : 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. [PAST TENSE!] (emphasis added)

You left out verse 11, which explains everything. Otherwise, anyone who ever commits any of these sins is doomed FOREVER! This passage says NOTHING about running to a priest for forgiveness. THAT is the literal interpretation of 9-10.

I am not sure I am following you. Are you saying that salvation used to be obtained through circumcision? We need to proclaim our faith in order to be Baptized in order to mimic what was done in the Bible. It is true that those among the elect are predestined to be so, which is another reason why we see Baptism as being symbolic of an already completed event. It is complete to "us" at the point of salvation, and we are to be Baptized soon thereafter, if possible, as an obedience to God.

Jesus told the Apostles to not prevent the little ones from coming to Him. But that is what you do by withholding Baptism to someone who makes a faith declaration (which isn't even from them!)

The youngest I have ever seen in my church to get Baptized I think was six years old. All have to be able to demonstrate through a testimony that they understand "the basics". This one did, in spades. It is not uncommon at all to see 8,9, or 10 year-olds do the same in my church. I would consider all of these to be "little ones" Biblically speaking.

FK: "Those who are already saved (already have their inheritance sealed), but have fallen away, will always come back to the Father. He has ordained it."

Saved in who's point of view? The person or God? Since we don't know God's mind, this doesn't help much in "KNOWING" that a 'saved' person will return to God.

Saved from God's POV. I am talking about hypothetically looking at other people. If I see someone I have guessed is saved fall away, I do not know if he will come back, but I will certainly try to be of help in any way I can. That's why I do not make presumptions about other people. If I fall away seriously, then either God will "touch" me directly, or He will move others to do it. Either way, I will be brought back. God says so.

If a person makes a choice where he is not compelled by necessity, it is a free will choice.

Hmmm. That's a new term. What is a choice "compelled by necessity"? Let's say you had a loved one who needed an operation that was very expensive. You didn't have all the money for it, but you thought there was a 50-50 chance you would be able to raise it in time. If I came up to you and said: "Jo, I'll give you $1,000,000 for you pen, what do you say?" When you say 'YES', you would see this as a free will choice? Kinda sounds like an offer you can't refuse, doesn't it?

FK: "The only conclusion, from what you have said, is that God does not love His children equally."

Wow! I really didn't expect to hear that. :) I developed this idea in other posts subsequent to the one I am responding to now. I can't wait to hear more, when I catch up.