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To: Agrarian; HarleyD
You really didn't answer my point -- namely that if TULIP were the clear and unadulterated teaching of the Apostles, then why don't we see it and other Reformed distinctives explicitly expounded by writers of the post-Apostolic period?

I really don't know what the Apostles taught outside of scripture, and I can't speak to how much of it was written about by others. My answer was to point out that both sides believe in things that may require some inference from scripture. TULIP is based only on scripture and no outside writings. That makes it different from much Tradition, which is not mentioned at all in the Bible. If any teaching is rooted firmly in scripture, like TULIP, then it carries 100 times the credibility with me as any teaching that does not appear in scripture.

... then how is it that there is not one of the early Church fathers that Calvinists can point to and say: "There, now that man teaches exactly what we teach, worshiped exactly as we worship, and is one of us."

Well, you all and Catholics can't even come close to the standard you use here, so I don't know why it should be applied to our side. I believe Harley has given lots of evidence that Augustine held many views we would find favorable.

Even if one were to claim that the Church became corrupt and only kept those writings that support its approach, this wouldn't explain why the "official Church" wouldn't have records of how it had stamped out the proto-Reformed "heresies." We have many writings that report in great detail various heresies.

I really can't speak to which records the Church kept and which they did not. I can't know. But, if it is true that the Apostles taught doctrine that was very opposed to Reformed theology, then a very unappealing (to me) alternative presents itself. Either the Apostles taught in complete riddles, or they wrote in complete riddles, or both. It would mean that scripture does not mean what it says. To me, that goes against any idea of a revealed faith.

On the other hand, your question of how key teachings about the Virgin Mary aren't in the Bible really isn't terribly on point. After all, we Orthodox have never claimed that everything we believe is explicitly spelled out in Scripture, so why would you expect to find it all there?

I wasn't trying to say that every belief you have must be in the Bible, even though I hold that view. I'm sure there is plenty of Tradition that does not offend the Bible and which is fine. Many of the rituals we have in our church are not spelled out word for word in the Bible, but are Bible-based. Rather, I was pointing out that since Mary is so cherished in the Church, it just seems odd that extremely important doctrine concerning her, that differentiates her from all others, is no where in scripture. What other figure of her stature is comparatively overlooked in terms of scripture?

Keep in mind also that unlike in Roman Catholicism, the vast majority of monastics in the Orthodox Church are laymen. Very few are ordained clergy ... In the Orthodox Church, being a member of the clergy is viewed as an act of sacrifice and service, and not one of authority.

I didn't know that at all. Then, do your clergy have the literal authority to forgive sins? Do they have the literal authority to stand in the place of Christ and act as Him?

As it is, the kinds of things that happened in the Catholic Church after Vatican II are nigh on to unthinkable in the Orthodox Church. The laity just wouldn't stand for it.

It sounds like your laity is very similar to ours. As much as we love him, if our pastor ever tried to pull anything like what you may be referring to, he would be out in the street on his butt in three seconds! :) Forever!

3,383 posted on 03/08/2006 9:53:29 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; AlbionGirl
I was pointing out that since Mary is so cherished in the Church, it just seems odd that extremely important doctrine concerning her, that differentiates her from all others, is no where in scripture.

Not only are there no such references in Scripture, we are expressly cautioned NOT to pray to anyone but Christ. (I posted the following Scripture the other day. I really like it, so I'll post it again. 8~)

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." -- Acts 17:22-31


3,385 posted on 03/08/2006 11:45:18 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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