Replies

FK: "I don't base any part of my salvation on anything I have done, am doing now, or ever will do. Therefore, "performance" is irrelevant to my idea of salvation."

Therefore sin boldly as Luther said! No amount of sin on this earth will earn you hell as no amount of good works in faith will earn you heaven. How convenient!

NO, NO, NO! :) As I have already explained in other ways, "Perseverance of the Saints" is incompatible with "sinning boldly". With your own eyes, you and JO saw me convert to POTS on this thread. That just made me consistent with my theological brothers and sister. Why do you keep accusing us of advocating sinning boldly? We all deny the way you are using it, and have from the beginning.

Some conform to Christ only if God has elected them and compelled us to do so. And others are damned from birth because God doesn't willed it so.

Change "Some" to "All" and I would say "YES!", and?....... :)

By denying free will, you "sin" only because God wants you to sin, and you take no blame for it.

No, we take full blame for our sin because God does not author sin. You say over and over again that God already knows everything we will ever do. I agree. Why does God create us that way, then? Does God get what He wants, or does He fail in this endeavor?

Three thousand posts and going, and we are square back at the beginning when I said Luther gave everyone permission to sin boldly — so it is true, that's what you all believe. Just for the record.

What is sad to me is for you, along with Jo in his 3148, (where Jo agrees with you and repeats another early stereotype that my side believes sanctification is meaningless) to both revert back to your original stereotypical knee-jerk opinions of others of different faiths after spending all the time you both have on this thread. I can tell you for a FACT that when I go back and read my very early postings on this thread, I won't recognize myself. Thanks and Praise be to God.

You both are as much as admitting that you have learned very little or nothing of our beliefs in 3,000+ posts. I freely admit that I had the most to learn, but if you guys are still harping on the "sin boldly" line, then it doesn't seem like you even want to know what our views are, even out of curiosity.

Why do you keep accusing us of advocating sinning boldly? We all deny the way you are using it, and have from the beginning.

Even Augustine...

For what is plainer than when He says, "I will cause you to do"? [Ezek. 36.27.] Give heed to that passage of Scripture, and you will see that God promises that He will make them to do those things which He commands to be done. He truly is not silent as to the merits but as to the evil deeds, of those to whom He shows that He is returning good for evil, by the very fact that He causeth them thenceforth to have good works, in causing them to do the divine commands.

Ooooo...skimming through Augustine's a Treatise on the Predestination of Man here's a good passage from Augustine which sounds like the arguments we're getting here...

"Therefore," says the Pelagian, "He foreknew who would be holy and immaculate by the choice of free will, and on that account elected them before the foundation of the world in that same foreknowledge of His in which He foreknew that they would be such. Therefore He elected them," says he, "before they existed, predestinating them to be children whom He foreknew to be holy and immaculate. - Augustine

Augustine himself calls this the Pelagius argument yet many try to distance themselve from Pelagius who was condemned by the Church. I suppose Augustine would know.

It would be laughable that this is now the Church official position if it wasn't so sad.

No, we take full blame for our sin because God does not author sin.

So does man have free will or not? I am confused on your stance here. On some posts, you say that God irresistibly causes us to do everything. Now, you say WE are responsible. How can we be responsible for anything if God does it all? If God moves me without me, than what have I done??? How can I be responsible? Am I called to obey the commandments or not?

I AM trying to understand you, but I am confused. Perhaps it is because we have different definitions of "being saved", and what IS "sanctification" for. Apparently, you believe that sanctification has nothing to do with our eternal destiny, that it only shows proof of our inevitable end. The problem is that you seem to know you are going to heaven, regardless of what happens after your Sinner's Prayer. (despite our agreement that people fall away)

When we say "sin boldly", as Luther said, we refer to your idea that sanctification has nothing to do with salvation. We disagree. If a person does not die to self, a person will not be saved for heaven. Read Romans 8:17, for example. Notice the word "IF". This "IF" occurs during the sanctification process. If we do not take that saving grace received at Baptism, then what good is it? God will not save us without us (St. Augustine). Unless we REPENT and BELIEVE, heaven does not await. But is repenting only a one-time thing? Of course not. We continue to convert throughout our lives. We must die to ourselves and become another Christ - divinization.

Regards

I can tell you for a FACT that when I go back and read my very early postings on this thread, I won't recognize myself. Thanks and Praise be to God.

Isn't God's plan amazing to behold?

"For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world" -- 2 Corinthians 1:12

Scripture tells us God even chooses our adversaries for us, like He did for Solomon, in order to accomplish His will.

"And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom...
And God stirred him up another adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah" -- 1 Kings 11:14;23

Apparently God's been "stirring up" this thread so that He could bring you to the place He wants you to be.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." -- Romans 8:28

And to prove how wondrous God is, I just realized for the very first time what Romans 8:28 actually says, even though I've posted it a hundred times.

"...to them who are the called according to his purpose."

I've always read that verse too quickly and assumed it said "who are called according to his purpose." But "called" is a noun here, not a verb. God's sheep are "the called." And apparently this is not universal, nor is everyone "the called," or else why make a distinction between "the called" and the "not called"?

So by this thread God has brought me, too, to a different place than where I was before it started.

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter." -- Acts 17:22-32