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Why do you keep accusing us of advocating sinning boldly? We all deny the way you are using it, and have from the beginning.

Even Augustine...

For what is plainer than when He says, "I will cause you to do"? [Ezek. 36.27.] Give heed to that passage of Scripture, and you will see that God promises that He will make them to do those things which He commands to be done. He truly is not silent as to the merits but as to the evil deeds, of those to whom He shows that He is returning good for evil, by the very fact that He causeth them thenceforth to have good works, in causing them to do the divine commands.

Ooooo...skimming through Augustine's a Treatise on the Predestination of Man here's a good passage from Augustine which sounds like the arguments we're getting here...

"Therefore," says the Pelagian, "He foreknew who would be holy and immaculate by the choice of free will, and on that account elected them before the foundation of the world in that same foreknowledge of His in which He foreknew that they would be such. Therefore He elected them," says he, "before they existed, predestinating them to be children whom He foreknew to be holy and immaculate. - Augustine

Augustine himself calls this the Pelagius argument yet many try to distance themselve from Pelagius who was condemned by the Church. I suppose Augustine would know.

It would be laughable that this is now the Church official position if it wasn't so sad.

Therefore," says the Pelagian, "He foreknew who would be holy and immaculate by the choice of free will, and on that account elected them before the foundation of the world in that same foreknowledge of His in which He foreknew that they would be such. Therefore He elected them," says he, "before they existed, predestinating them to be children whom He foreknew to be holy and immaculate.

Harley, why didn't you continue with your quote from the Saint? The VERY NEXT SENTENCE you dropped explains the PELAGIAN VIEW in addition to what you wrote...

Certainly He did not make them so; nor did He foresee that He would make them so, but that they would be so

THIS is what Pelagius says...That God didn't make man good - but that man would BE so.

As usual, you cut and paste out of context, not giving us the FULL truth of the matter. It should be clear from the Council of Orange 2 and Trent that the Church does not teach that man can come to God alone, or that man can do anything good without God. "Certainly, God did not make man good" is the Pelagius view...

I hope you didn't drop that sentence purposely. It is not conducive in the search for the truth when you find it necessary to give partial quotations to back up your theology.

Regards