Yes, it is paid in full. All we have to do now it to go to the bank and withdraw against this infinite account. We do it all the time when we ask for forgiveness. IF it was done in the sense that we no longer have to ask forgiveness or receive Christ's graces applied to us, then why would Jesus say :
"Receive ye the Holy Spirit; 23unto those whose sins ye release, they shall be released; [and] unto those whose [sins] ye retain, they shall be retained.
John 20:22-23
Or why would Paul write :
"I Paul am made a minister, who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fulfill in my flesh that which [is] lacking of the tribulations of the Christ for his body's sake, which is the church" Col 1:23-24
We require Christ's objective redemption applied to our specific selves - called subjective redemption. Christ died for the sin of ALL men. Everyone. But not everyone is saved. Thus, the subjective redemption - that person - did not apply Christ's gifts to his own self through repentance and conversion.
Very debatable, but I don't buy it. (God's forgiveness is conditional)
"The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye and believe the Gospel" Mark 1:15 Doesn't this imply that we have the choice to do one or the other? I don't have the energy to post all the verses that talk about those who choose to reject God's graces and NOT repent and believe... but here is one: "He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" John 3:18
Thus, forgiveness of sins is based on REPENTING. It is conditional, brother.
If God's forgiveness is conditional, then you are setting up a two-way covenant. Many moons ago, you burned me fair and square with the Mosaic Covenant, but you never mentioned the New Covenant as being two-way. :) LOL! Christ consecrated the New Covenant at a PASSOVER FEAST commemorating the Exodus of Moses and the Israelites. He chose that context for many reasons. But one is that we must turn to God and ask for the forgiveness of our sins - which Jesus offers as part of this covenant. IF Forgivness was not conditional, then ALL men would be saved - no one is in hell - because Christ died FOR ALL MEN, not just the elect.
What surprises me is that I thought you had an aversion to ideas of us being either "slaves to sin" or "slaves to righteousness". Or, am I taking you out of context?
Things are not black and white. I think Paul is talking more about a general way of acting, not our each and every sin or good deed moves us in and out of being slaves to sin, or slaves to righteousness. Does the latter become the former EVERY TIME THEY SIN, and vice versus? This would be a DAILY back and forth! Thus, one venial sin doesn't kill the soul.
Is your view that he was damned from the time he committed all those sins until he asked forgiveness of God?
We have different views of "being saved", as I have painfully told you. How could David be damned if he hadn't died yet before his contrition. He was in an "unrighteous status" with God. He was not considered righteous in God's eyes as a result of his sin. But when he returned to God, David was restored (this is from David's point of view. God already knew David would be sorrowful. But the Scripture speaks from David's view sometimes. Being that David was of the elect, God knew David would return.)
Here is where we go back to the "time" and "simultaneous" issue, so I'll hold until I read your response to my earlier post.
God saw David in his mother's womb, In the shepherd's field, slaying Goliath, committing adultery, morning over his sick infant, weeping over Absalom, and dying all at once. What's the problem? God saw David's return to Him within time.
Regards
Jo: Yes, it is paid in full. All we have to do now it to go to the bank and withdraw against this infinite account. We do it all the time when we ask for forgiveness. IF it was done in the sense that we no longer have to ask forgiveness or receive Christ's graces applied to us, then why would Jesus say : ... [John 20:22-23]
I don't know that I understand your analogy. Once a debt is paid in full, the account is closed. The balance is zero. There is no account from which to draw. It is finished.
I see Christ paying for the sins of His elect and our continual asking of God for forgiveness of our sins as two separate issues. What Christ did on the cross was perfect and perfectly complete. He paid for the sins of His elect and forgave them their sins past, present, and future. When we ask God for forgiveness now for our sins, it is not to earn our way into heaven. (I know you have said before that you do not believe in that, but, suddenly, now we have to go to this bank of yours and do works to "make a withdrawl" to get our salvation after Christ finished His work on the cross. Maybe this goes back to "works" only being for pay, which again stands the scripture on its head. The scripture doesn't say what it says.)
Asking for forgiveness, after being saved, is an obedience to God, as He commands that we do so. It is for our own good, and when we obey Him we love Him. It is part of our sanctification.
"The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye and believe the Gospel" Mark 1:15 Doesn't this imply that we have the choice to do one or the other?
Not at all. One thing Jesus was doing is teaching us that the whole world is a mission field from our POV. Of course, He already knew who would be saved and who would be lost. Yet, He spoke to many of the lost anyway. Why would He waste His time?
"He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" John 3:18
Thus, forgiveness of sins is based on REPENTING. It is conditional, brother.
He that is predestined to be of the elect will believe and not be condemned, etc. Do you believe in single predestination or not? :) For the elect, the forgiveness of sins is based on what Christ did on the cross. Repentance, for the elect, is a future included event.
Things are not black and white. I think Paul is talking more about a general way of acting, not our each and every sin or good deed moves us in and out of being slaves to sin, or slaves to righteousness. Does the latter become the former EVERY TIME THEY SIN, and vice versus? This would be a DAILY back and forth! Thus, one venial sin doesn't kill the soul.
But your whole faith is based on a ping-pong salvation model. :) Confess today and you are saved. Commit mortal sin tomorrow and you are lost forever. Go back to confession the next day, and you are saved again. Don't you go back and forth again and again your whole lives? This seems inconsistent with what you are saying above.
We have different views of "being saved", as I have painfully told you. How could David be damned if he hadn't died yet before his contrition. He was in an "unrighteous status" with God. He was not considered righteous in God's eyes as a result of his sin. But when he returned to God, David was restored.
I know that we have different ideas of salvation, but when you say that a person's status can't be known until death, even if a hypothetical, then you are evading. I have been told by Catholics on this thread that if you commit a mortal sin, and never are forgiven, and there are no special "outs", then the person is lost. That's the ping-pong model. In all of my examples such as this, it is assumed that nothing changes. My point was that under your system, if David never did ask forgiveness, then he would have been damned.
FK: "Here is where we go back to the "time" and "simultaneous" issue, so I'll hold until I read your response to my earlier post."
God saw David in his mother's womb, In the shepherd's field, slaying Goliath, committing adultery, morning over his sick infant, weeping over Absalom, and dying all at once. What's the problem? God saw David's return to Him within time.
Your original comment was: "Is someone in Christ when a Christian murders or commits adultery? You be the judge. There is more to being a Christian than a name. Only those who DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN shall enter the Kingdom." I responded "You mean like David, on both counts? ..."
My problem is that you are "simultaneously" (OH-HO) using God both inside and outside of time to suit your purposes. When you make a point, God is inside time and magically does what you need Him to do. Of course, when I make a point, God is magically outside of time and so nothing applies. Then you add the fact that everything happens simultaneously and is a mystery. David used his independent free will to come back, God saw it in advance, AND God and David chose each other simultaneously. I suppose the word "mystery" really does apply here. :)