Jo: Yes, it is paid in full. All we have to do now it to go to the bank and withdraw against this infinite account. We do it all the time when we ask for forgiveness. IF it was done in the sense that we no longer have to ask forgiveness or receive Christ's graces applied to us, then why would Jesus say : ... [John 20:22-23]
I don't know that I understand your analogy. Once a debt is paid in full, the account is closed. The balance is zero. There is no account from which to draw. It is finished.
I see Christ paying for the sins of His elect and our continual asking of God for forgiveness of our sins as two separate issues. What Christ did on the cross was perfect and perfectly complete. He paid for the sins of His elect and forgave them their sins past, present, and future. When we ask God for forgiveness now for our sins, it is not to earn our way into heaven. (I know you have said before that you do not believe in that, but, suddenly, now we have to go to this bank of yours and do works to "make a withdrawl" to get our salvation after Christ finished His work on the cross. Maybe this goes back to "works" only being for pay, which again stands the scripture on its head. The scripture doesn't say what it says.)
Asking for forgiveness, after being saved, is an obedience to God, as He commands that we do so. It is for our own good, and when we obey Him we love Him. It is part of our sanctification.
"The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent ye and believe the Gospel" Mark 1:15 Doesn't this imply that we have the choice to do one or the other?
Not at all. One thing Jesus was doing is teaching us that the whole world is a mission field from our POV. Of course, He already knew who would be saved and who would be lost. Yet, He spoke to many of the lost anyway. Why would He waste His time?
"He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" John 3:18
Thus, forgiveness of sins is based on REPENTING. It is conditional, brother.
He that is predestined to be of the elect will believe and not be condemned, etc. Do you believe in single predestination or not? :) For the elect, the forgiveness of sins is based on what Christ did on the cross. Repentance, for the elect, is a future included event.
Things are not black and white. I think Paul is talking more about a general way of acting, not our each and every sin or good deed moves us in and out of being slaves to sin, or slaves to righteousness. Does the latter become the former EVERY TIME THEY SIN, and vice versus? This would be a DAILY back and forth! Thus, one venial sin doesn't kill the soul.
But your whole faith is based on a ping-pong salvation model. :) Confess today and you are saved. Commit mortal sin tomorrow and you are lost forever. Go back to confession the next day, and you are saved again. Don't you go back and forth again and again your whole lives? This seems inconsistent with what you are saying above.
We have different views of "being saved", as I have painfully told you. How could David be damned if he hadn't died yet before his contrition. He was in an "unrighteous status" with God. He was not considered righteous in God's eyes as a result of his sin. But when he returned to God, David was restored.
I know that we have different ideas of salvation, but when you say that a person's status can't be known until death, even if a hypothetical, then you are evading. I have been told by Catholics on this thread that if you commit a mortal sin, and never are forgiven, and there are no special "outs", then the person is lost. That's the ping-pong model. In all of my examples such as this, it is assumed that nothing changes. My point was that under your system, if David never did ask forgiveness, then he would have been damned.
FK: "Here is where we go back to the "time" and "simultaneous" issue, so I'll hold until I read your response to my earlier post."
God saw David in his mother's womb, In the shepherd's field, slaying Goliath, committing adultery, morning over his sick infant, weeping over Absalom, and dying all at once. What's the problem? God saw David's return to Him within time.
Your original comment was: "Is someone in Christ when a Christian murders or commits adultery? You be the judge. There is more to being a Christian than a name. Only those who DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN shall enter the Kingdom." I responded "You mean like David, on both counts? ..."
My problem is that you are "simultaneously" (OH-HO) using God both inside and outside of time to suit your purposes. When you make a point, God is inside time and magically does what you need Him to do. Of course, when I make a point, God is magically outside of time and so nothing applies. Then you add the fact that everything happens simultaneously and is a mystery. David used his independent free will to come back, God saw it in advance, AND God and David chose each other simultaneously. I suppose the word "mystery" really does apply here. :)
So all men are saved, then??? The Bible says that Christ died for the sin of ALL men. EVERYONE. Despite your ignoring these Scriptures, it is so. And yet, we know that some people will not be saved. We know that Christ gave men the power to forgive sins, AFTER His resurrection, when His work was "complete", according to you. WHY? Christ died for the sin of the world, but it remains for us to actuallly repent. We continue to ask Christ for forgiveness of sin. He CONTINUES to intercede for us, as does His Spirit!
"the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" Romans 8:26
Present tense. Right now... Why would the Spirit be interceding for us NOW, after "it's all done"?
It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us Romans 8:34
Now, Christ is INTERCEDING right NOW? In the present? AFTER He died for our sins and said "It is finished"?
"Wherefore he (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them" Heb 7:25
Apparently, Paul has a different idea than you regarding what Christ had already done and what He CURRENTLY is doing.
Asking for forgiveness, after being saved, is an obedience to God, as He commands that we do so. It is for our own good, and when we obey Him we love Him. It is part of our sanctification.
So when God commanded us to ask for forgiveness, it wasn't so that He'd forgive us our sins? What exactly are we asking for? Why the evasion on God's part? Why don't we just ask Him for our "sanctification" (whatever that is for, in the mind of the Protestant, I don't know). Why does God give men the power to forgive sins AFTER His Resurrection? What is Paul talking about in 2 Cor 5 about the "ministry of reconciliation"? Is this all a sophisticated charade to mask what is really happening? If all my sins are forgiven before I even ask for forgiveness, then why aren't all men saved?
He already knew who would be saved and who would be lost. Yet, He spoke to many of the lost anyway. Why would He waste His time?
Say what? It's not a "waste of time" to reach out to people, those you love, even when you know they are heading down a path of being "lost".
"I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: [and] they walked in their own counsels. Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, [and] Israel had walked in my ways! " Ps 81:10-13
God PINES for us to turn to Him! Can't you hear His voice? The God of Love loves unconditionally - even His "enemies". He reaches out to ALL, the wicked and the righteous. "oh, if only they would listen to me". That says it all, brother.
He that is predestined to be of the elect will believe and not be condemned, etc
Come on. How many times have I said WE don't know we are of the elect? Is this really such a difficult concept? God foresees our actions, our responses to His initiative.
But your whole faith is based on a ping-pong salvation model. :) Confess today and you are saved. Commit mortal sin tomorrow and you are lost forever. Go back to confession the next day, and you are saved again. Don't you go back and forth again and again your whole lives? This seems inconsistent with what you are saying above.
It's not, because I was talking about MORTAL sins, not minor venial sins. People in Christ do not "pin-pong" back and forth between mortal sins and love of Christ. As to the rest, it is certainly Biblical...
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ez 18:21-24
Brother, isn't it clear that WE can come into righteousness, or come into wickedness, even after our Baptism/Sinner's Prayer?
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13
I know that we have different ideas of salvation, but when you say that a person's status can't be known until death, even if a hypothetical, then you are evading. I have been told by Catholics on this thread that if you commit a mortal sin, and never are forgiven, and there are no special "outs", then the person is lost. That's the ping-pong model.
What you give in the first sentence, you take away in the last. We have different ideas of the word "saved". We don't consider being saved as being irresistibly and infallibly marked for eternal life. Saved to us means we are healed. We have taken the first step to eternal heaven. This does not mean we will MAKE IT to heaven. Thus, our "salvation" here on earth, our Baptism, is not salvation for eternity, like it means for you. Thus, what "ping-pong" are you talking about? We never said we are "saved for heaven infallibly" to begin with!
My problem is that you are "simultaneously" (OH-HO) using God both inside and outside of time to suit your purposes. When you make a point, God is inside time and magically does what you need Him to do. Of course, when I make a point, God is magically outside of time and so nothing applies
I detect frustration. The problem is that you are mixing God's view with our view. Of course, God acts upon time - He created it. Thus, when He reaches into time from outside of it, from His NOW, He has entered a chronological point of view. However, to Him, this reaching into time occurs simultaneously as His other reachings into time. Have you considered the Creed "{Jesus} IS eternally begotten" What does that mean? Eternity is NOT a "long time"!!! It is ALL of time compressed into one event. Thus, while God is outside Time, He views our responses to various stimuli all as one action. He reaches into time (entering OUR chronology) through His graces. When He interacts with us, His grace enters time.
Thus, God reaches into time - Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection. But God is outside of time - the Crucifixion is ALWAYS PRESENT to Him. Thus, if we go to the beginning of this tome, and look at Christ INTERCEDING for us, Christ's one-time action is His PRESENT INTERCESSION, during His one NOW. And to us, in time, Jesus intercedes for man until the end of time. This is how during the Mass, Christ's Passion is re-presented to us.
Regards