You wrote : Yes, and it does. Any sin makes us unfit for heaven. For the wages of sin is death.
That is true. Sin makes us unfit for heaven. In a sense, you are correct. But telling a white lie does not condemn a man to hell. The Scripture throughout does not require a man be perfect, if that man walks in faith. Only when one follows the Law, expecting it to save him, is a man required perfection. However, in the OT and NT, those who put their faith in God must be righteous in God's eyes, not perfect. Was Abraham perfect? Jacob? David? Did each of these men sin? They were considered righteous in God's eyes because their life was a walking in faith in God, trusting in God, obeying His commandments. God doesn't require perfection from His children. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of those who follow "imputed righteousness".
From what I have learned, venial sins do not need to be confessed, and therefore may very well go unforgiven. So, under your view, it appears that God lets sinners into heaven who have not been cleansed, that is, the unrighteous.
God, in His infinite Wisdom and Mercy, has provided man a final opportunity to purge those sins - called Purgatory.
Therefore, God does not get what He wants, and is a weak God.
God ALSO desires, even more so, that we come to Him out of LOVE. Love requires that men choose. Yes, God desires all men be saved. And God also desires that ALL men love Him. But God cannot force men to love Him without taking away their ability to love. Thus, something's got to give. At any rate, you are implying that God cannot condescend to allow something against His will for a greater good. God allows sin - does He desire it? We agree, I hope, that God allows that He might desire for something that is a greater good?
Is this the part where we use nothing of ourselves apart from God in salvation? :) I don't understand the distinction if "everything" comes from God, as you said before.
God is part of every decision we make. He created our brains, did He not? God installed within us an intellect - yet we don't know everything, (I don't, anyway). God gave us a will - but it often fails me. Yes, God gives us lots of things - but that doesn't mean that things lead us inexorably to Him. That only will happen for the elect - AFTER THE FACT. Thus, when we decide, God is part of the equation, but it is OUR choice.
And yet in the same breath you all will say that God loves these people. Impossible. Could anyone make a fully informed choice to choose Hell over Heaven?
Do you know what love is?
Does God have the power to fully inform everyone (grace)?
He does.
God loves these people, but chooses, intentionally, not to grace them with full information? How do you explain this?
Why doesn't God grant you full information? How do you explain that someone who calls himself the elect not know everything about God? God will judge ALL men based on what they knew. God has informed ALL men through the law written in their hearts what is right and what is wrong. Those people will have no excuse - as they accuse their neighbors of wronging THEM, they certainly DID know what was right and wrong.
God plainly says that the elect necessarily will persevere, although the elect can't know exactly how that will unfold.
You are plainly ignoring my plea to instruct me how you know you WILL be of the elect 5 years from now.
If the proclaimer is of the elect, then 'Yes'. We believe that we cannot produce good fruit in God's eyes until we are saved, so a member of the elect must be saved first.
You are equating "being saved" with being of the elect - while maintaining this occurs during your Sinner's Prayer. Yet, you tell me that the Sinner's Prayer COULD be ineffective. So you don't know if you are of the elect, according to this logic. Again, we have two definitions of being "saved". You seem to roll up being healed temporally and eternally in one event, which the Scripture disagrees with. Sure, we are saved, healed, in one event. But it doesn't follow that we will REMAIN "healthy" throughout our life. Sanctification DOES have a significant effect on whether we are saved "eternally" - but not temporally.
I don't base any part of my salvation on anything I have done, am doing now, or ever will do. Therefore, "performance" is irrelevant to my idea of salvation.
That's because we have different ideas of salvation.
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath. Romans 2:5-8 There are a number of such verses in Scripture - being judged by our walk in faith. If you believe that you will enter heaven without love, you are mistaken.
Regards
What part am I misunderstanding? In one way or another, I agree with everything short of the last sentence. :)
God, in His infinite Wisdom and Mercy, has provided man a final opportunity to purge those sins - called Purgatory.
Whoops! I keep forgetting about purgatory. OK. :)
Yes, God desires all men be saved. And God also desires that ALL men love Him. But God cannot force men to love Him without taking away their ability to love. Thus, something's got to give. At any rate, you are implying that God cannot condescend to allow something against His will for a greater good. God allows sin - does He desire it? We agree, I hope, that God allows that He might desire for something that is a greater good?
I understand what you are saying about love being a choice, or else it isn't real. We certainly do experience that, just like the cookie daughter. FOR THE DAUGHTER, her love was real, and good. It mattered and counted. However, the mother was still always in complete control. Such is similar with God.
When someone uses the word "force", I usually think of it as being against someone's will. I wouldn't put it that way with how God works. I would say that instead, God gives His elect an offer they can't refuse. An offer SO GOOD, that no man can say 'No'. I don't see this as the same thing as "forcing".
As for God's condescension, I know that under "normal" circumstances the Father would certainly not want to see His Son crucified!!! So, I agree that for the greater good sad things happen. But, I wouldn't say that it is against His will. He has the power to set it up any way He wants to, so the exact way that everything happens must be exactly His will. Jesus, the man, showed us exactly what our attitude should be. It's OK to say what you think, but always pray that the will of God will be done.
Do you know what love is?
In this context, love is taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves.
[FK, on his perception of Jo's view:] God loves these [lost] people, but chooses, intentionally, not to grace them with full information? How do you explain this?
Why doesn't God grant you full information? How do you explain that someone who calls himself the elect not know everything about God?
But God did grant me full information. That is, all the information I needed to come to Him. He made me an offer I couldn't refuse, so I experienced the "choice" of choosing Him. No one can ever know everything about God, but we can aspire to know everything that we need. That is available to the elect.
You are plainly ignoring my plea to instruct me how you know you WILL be of the elect 5 years from now.
I've said many times that God promises that no one, not even the person himself, can snatch him out of God's hands. We just disagree on that scripture. I've also said that God's elect was chosen for all time before the foundation of the world. I rely on that to know that if I am of the elect today, that I will be 5 years from now. The elect doesn't change. I honestly don't know how you perceive this to be ignoring your question. I will attempt to answer anything, even if the answer is "I don't know". :) If I am misunderstanding what you are asking, is there another way to phrase it?
You are equating "being saved" with being of the elect - while maintaining this occurs during your Sinner's Prayer. Yet, you tell me that the Sinner's Prayer COULD be ineffective. So you don't know if you are of the elect, according to this logic.
All those who are saved are of the elect and all those of the elect will be saved. The sinner's prayer is a mechanism that all of the elect will use successfully, because God ordained it. Those not of the elect may also say the prayer, but it will not be effective. We humans can't be absolutely certain about that for other people, but God provides that we may be sure about ourselves. Through my sanctification I have been able to appropriate God's truth on this matter, so I say that I can have assurance that I am of the elect.
Again, we have two definitions of being "saved".
I agree, as I also agree that we have different interpretations of scripture in backing up our respective positions.
... Romans 2:5-8 There are a number of such verses in Scripture - being judged by our walk in faith. If you believe that you will enter heaven without love, you are mistaken.
I am certain that we will all face a judgment based on our walk in faith. Interestingly, my Pastor preached on this point yesterday. That makes two weeks in a row that his sermon has been directly on point in this thread. Maybe he's lurking. :) Anyway, no one on my side believes that we enter heaven without love. God gives the elect love, which we use to love Him back. He loved us first.