What part am I misunderstanding? In one way or another, I agree with everything short of the last sentence. :)
God, in His infinite Wisdom and Mercy, has provided man a final opportunity to purge those sins - called Purgatory.
Whoops! I keep forgetting about purgatory. OK. :)
Yes, God desires all men be saved. And God also desires that ALL men love Him. But God cannot force men to love Him without taking away their ability to love. Thus, something's got to give. At any rate, you are implying that God cannot condescend to allow something against His will for a greater good. God allows sin - does He desire it? We agree, I hope, that God allows that He might desire for something that is a greater good?
I understand what you are saying about love being a choice, or else it isn't real. We certainly do experience that, just like the cookie daughter. FOR THE DAUGHTER, her love was real, and good. It mattered and counted. However, the mother was still always in complete control. Such is similar with God.
When someone uses the word "force", I usually think of it as being against someone's will. I wouldn't put it that way with how God works. I would say that instead, God gives His elect an offer they can't refuse. An offer SO GOOD, that no man can say 'No'. I don't see this as the same thing as "forcing".
As for God's condescension, I know that under "normal" circumstances the Father would certainly not want to see His Son crucified!!! So, I agree that for the greater good sad things happen. But, I wouldn't say that it is against His will. He has the power to set it up any way He wants to, so the exact way that everything happens must be exactly His will. Jesus, the man, showed us exactly what our attitude should be. It's OK to say what you think, but always pray that the will of God will be done.
Do you know what love is?
In this context, love is taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves.
[FK, on his perception of Jo's view:] God loves these [lost] people, but chooses, intentionally, not to grace them with full information? How do you explain this?
Why doesn't God grant you full information? How do you explain that someone who calls himself the elect not know everything about God?
But God did grant me full information. That is, all the information I needed to come to Him. He made me an offer I couldn't refuse, so I experienced the "choice" of choosing Him. No one can ever know everything about God, but we can aspire to know everything that we need. That is available to the elect.
You are plainly ignoring my plea to instruct me how you know you WILL be of the elect 5 years from now.
I've said many times that God promises that no one, not even the person himself, can snatch him out of God's hands. We just disagree on that scripture. I've also said that God's elect was chosen for all time before the foundation of the world. I rely on that to know that if I am of the elect today, that I will be 5 years from now. The elect doesn't change. I honestly don't know how you perceive this to be ignoring your question. I will attempt to answer anything, even if the answer is "I don't know". :) If I am misunderstanding what you are asking, is there another way to phrase it?
You are equating "being saved" with being of the elect - while maintaining this occurs during your Sinner's Prayer. Yet, you tell me that the Sinner's Prayer COULD be ineffective. So you don't know if you are of the elect, according to this logic.
All those who are saved are of the elect and all those of the elect will be saved. The sinner's prayer is a mechanism that all of the elect will use successfully, because God ordained it. Those not of the elect may also say the prayer, but it will not be effective. We humans can't be absolutely certain about that for other people, but God provides that we may be sure about ourselves. Through my sanctification I have been able to appropriate God's truth on this matter, so I say that I can have assurance that I am of the elect.
Again, we have two definitions of being "saved".
I agree, as I also agree that we have different interpretations of scripture in backing up our respective positions.
... Romans 2:5-8 There are a number of such verses in Scripture - being judged by our walk in faith. If you believe that you will enter heaven without love, you are mistaken.
I am certain that we will all face a judgment based on our walk in faith. Interestingly, my Pastor preached on this point yesterday. That makes two weeks in a row that his sermon has been directly on point in this thread. Maybe he's lurking. :) Anyway, no one on my side believes that we enter heaven without love. God gives the elect love, which we use to love Him back. He loved us first.
That is contrary to what the New Testament teaches us.
Those who believe in "imputed righteousness" alone believe that God covers us with Christ's righteousness - that a man (even abiding in Christ) is insufficient to be considered "righteous". Thus, the legal status invented by some. God treats us as His children. Children are not required to be perfect to be loved and rewarded for their actions.
However, the mother was still always in complete control. Such is similar with God.
I still think we can use the cookie analogy here, as well. The Mother IS in "complete control". But she ALLOWS the cookies to be made with her daughter's input. In other words, some of the cookies will be mishapened. Some will be different sized, or funky-looking. Again, the mother ALLOWS this daughter to be a secondary cause of how the cookies turn out. And I believe God does the same with us. He allows us to struggle through life, not fulfilling the Commandments perfectly, but struggling to abide in Him, He accepts this imperfect sacrifice and effort. As a loving Father, He is happy that we are trying to use His gifts, even if they are not used perfectly. He is in control, but He doesn't use that control to overtake our efforts. God is not surprised by what we do, nor does He micromanage us where our efforts count for nothing.
God gives His elect an offer they can't refuse. An offer SO GOOD, that no man can say 'No'. I don't see this as the same thing as "forcing".
God stirs within us the desire for God that is innate in ALL people. Some will react to this differently. However, "an offer they can't refuse"? You are presuming that a person TRUSTS God completely and totally from the get-go. Trust is learned. Honestly, even those who make the Sinner's Prayer, how much do they REALLY trust this "God" who is unseen and virtually undetected in their lives? We learn to trust God in our lives - so this "offer" CAN be refused (but God knows who will and who will not refuse). Scripture says that God's graces can come to us in vain because of us.
Jesus, the man, showed us exactly what our attitude should be. It's OK to say what you think, but always pray that the will of God will be done.
True. But why is it necessary that we pray that the will of God be done, if God's will is ALWAYS done? Consider Jesus' prayer for unity in John's Gospel during the Last Supper. His desire was for unity among His followers, both present and future.
I've said many times that God promises that no one, not even the person himself, can snatch him out of God's hands.
And again, Scripture never makes that claim. It tells us that we CAN fall away. WE. The Devil cannot take us from God. Other powers cannot. But God leaves open the decision of acceptance to us. I do not agree that it is an offer that I cannot refuse. I feel led to continue in the Lord, but I realize there is a voice within me battling and tempting me to "forget about all of this Lent stuff. Why sacrifice? For what?" We will always battle the serpent - and he will try to get us to refuse the Lord. The very idea of temptation makes our acceptance of the Lord valuable and meritorious - not automatic.
I rely on that to know that if I am of the elect today, that I will be 5 years from now.
Well, of course, IF IF IF you are of the elect...You don't know the mind of the Lord on this matter. All you or I can do is HOPE we are of the elect, continuing to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Anything else is presumption, a sin against God's mercy and justice.
All those who are saved are of the elect and all those of the elect will be saved.
A wonderful circular argument!
"I am of the elect"
"How do you know"?, asks Jo
"Because I am saved".
"Meaning?" asks Jo.
"I am of the elect"
Oh boy... It's all beginning to give me a headache.
We humans can't be absolutely certain about that for other people, but God provides that we may be sure about ourselves
LOL!!! Which Protestant believes that that after saying the Sinner's Prayer, that they are not of the elect? The only one who believes it didn't work are those who judge other people after the fact when a person falls - "He was never saved to begin with" What device did God give that person to indicate that this person would falter?
Through my sanctification I have been able to appropriate God's truth on this matter, so I say that I can have assurance that I am of the elect.
That's only useful for the PRESENT - we don't know what may happen down the road, AND is based on our OWN ideas of salvation. We disagree on some matters of salvation. If you are wrong, your assurance is just delusional, correct? When IF Christ meant that a person must eat His flesh to be saved for eternal life? Have you received the Eucharist as HE implemented it at the Last Supper and practiced by Christians for 2000 years? The point of this is that your assurances are based on presumptions. Presumptions that you will remain faithful until the end, that you will persevere, AND presumptions that your interpretations of Scripture are entirely in line with God's intent.
This is no longer absolute assurance.
I am certain that we will all face a judgment based on our walk in faith. Interestingly, my Pastor preached on this point yesterday. That makes two weeks in a row that his sermon has been directly on point in this thread. Maybe he's lurking. :) Anyway, no one on my side believes that we enter heaven without love. God gives the elect love, which we use to love Him back. He loved us first.
So then we are not saved by faith alone, correct? Furthermore, if we are judged on our walk, what happens if our walk was insufficient, for example, as Jesus describes on several occasions in Matthew 25 with three parables? Are those who are judged unworthy entering heaven?
Regards