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To: Kolokotronis; HarleyD
Let me suggest that when you speak of God "not allowing" the elect to fall away, you are surely expressing belief in predestination of the sort which The Church rejects.

I think you are absolutely right! :) The more I learn about reformed theology, the more it rings true to me.

Similarly with the concept of the "elect", God foreknows who the elect will be; that doesn't mean that He presdestines anyone for election.

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with these terms yet, but would that be called a "fully" Pelagian view? :) Is this a fair summary: double predestination (Calvinism) is what Harley and I believe, single predestination (also known as semi-Pelagionism or Arminianism) is what the Catholics believe, and no predestination (Pelagionism) is the Orthodox view? (I'm just trying to get comfortable using these terms on my own. :)

Again, it all comes back to two things. What was and is our created purpose and what really is meant by the English word "sin". The answers to those questions determine quite literally everything we believe about our role in Creation and our relationship to God both now and for eternity.

Am I correct in thinking that by a person's view of sin determining his belief about his relationship with God, you are referring to your rejection of original sin? I know that you all say that sin is "missing the mark", of Jesus. I suppose I would use a label such as "evil". I think you may have, but if you haven't already answered this, what is the concrete difference between sin and evil? I suppose I would see evil as anything apart from God. I know you would never say that sin is "acceptable" in any manner, I just had an impression that your view was that evil was "worse" than sin.

2,835 posted on 02/20/2006 2:29:25 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; jo kus
I'm not sure how comfortable I am with these terms yet... and no predestination (Pelagionism) is the Orthodox view?

FK, our destinies are known to God through His foreknowledge. He knows what our choices will be. That doesn't mean He makes them for us. Those who choose God, and follow Christ's footsteps will be saved; those who don't won't.

We can say quite confidently that everyone who is alive today will be dead 150 years from now. In other words, we are predestined to die. But God did not cause that. Our souls are pre-destined to go to heaven or hell. God knows where each soul shall end up, but He doesn't cause the soul to heaven or hell. Those souls that believed shall be saved; those that believed not shall be damned. No one is compelled to believe or not to believe.

As for God "abandoning" us -- it is a false perception of ours (and I mean the believers or the "elect" as you say). Of course, the nonbelievers will never say that God abandoned them! But true believers experience periods when they feel that the Spirit is not with them. Just the contrary is true: we are not with the Spirit. He never leaves us; we leave Him -- short or long, it doesn't matter. God is always and forever. His love is always there for us to accept.

2,836 posted on 02/20/2006 3:47:33 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; jo kus; Cronos; HarleyD; annalex
Am I correct in thinking that by a person's view of sin determining his belief about his relationship with God, you are referring to your rejection of original sin?

The Orthodox do not reject the original sin -- the sin committed by our ancestral parents. The Orthodox do not believe we inherit the sin of theirs, nor that we are responsible for their sin.

We are simply born with the consequences of their sin. Imagine a woman who is an alcoholic and drinks while she is pregnant. Her sin will poison the baby. The child, will be born brain-damaged from the effects of alcohol, yet the child is not guilty of having done any drinking of his or her own. Where is the guilt in that child?

St. Augustine and all of Western Christianity realize the damage done to our nature by our ancestral parents' sin -- but you attach shame and guilt to each human being born for their doing. That twisted logic is what the Orthodox Church rejects! We see ourselves as damaged and sick and in need of healing; not as some dirt that we should be ashamed of, for our damage is not of our own doing.

2,837 posted on 02/20/2006 4:08:45 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis

Trying to determine whether a person is a Pelagius, a Semi-Pelagius, or an Arminian is next to impossible. Each of these theology had particular doctrine behind them. Consequently you'll hear a lot of people (including Protestants) say they're not this or that simply because they don't fall into the full definition. Likewise, in some cases, some claim to even be Calvinists when by definition they're not.

While I (try to) call everyone an Arminian (not always successfully) it really comes down to whether a person believes in synergistic salvation (man must cooperate somehow) or a monergistic salvation (God simply elects a person).

Contrary to what some may say, monergistic salvation was the view of the early western church. I will agree that the Church has rejected it but that was long after our early church fathers.


2,842 posted on 02/20/2006 1:20:14 PM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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