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Well, if you only would have said this in the first place! Whew. From our point of view, we can blow it. Correct. From God's point of view, the elect cannot blow it. The Sanctification process gives us increasing assuredness AND transforms us into the original image and likeness that God had intended for us (although not complete until heaven)... And IF we are of the Elect, which we grow in confidence of yearly, we will realize that God will NOT allow us to blow it.

Except for timing of assurance (now vs. later) I would agree with all of this. I am just as surprised at your post :) I would not have expected you to say that (from God's POV) the elect cannot blow it, because I wasn't sure if we had relative definitions on who the elect were. I'd say that problem is solved. :) Now I feel that we're only an inch apart on this.

The point of this cross-examination was to get you to realize this key part of our faith - that from our POV, we must continue in humility, always working out our salvation in fear and trembling. It is NEVER a done deal until the day of our particular judgment. Thus, our sanctification is REAL. We ARE changing, being transformed. What God's Word says, He puts into action.

I agree that God's word is put into action. He will carry on to completion the good work He began in us. It's a promise. We count on it and it gives us assurance. Sanctification is very real, both from our POV and from God's.

[On someone who has fallen away after a personal tragedy:] We can judge "the person was never saved". I would say the person was never of the elect - but he didn't realize that. But the point I am making is that who knows what God has planned for us or whether we are going to be with God in heaven. ...

If the falling away proves permanent I would absolutely agree with you that the person was never of the elect. I also agree that we can never know what God has planned for us, but doesn't He make promises to us about who goes to heaven? I think maybe you and I look at these promises from two vantage points. One, as from a present condition met, and one as a future condition met. In either case it seems we agree on the premise, just not the assurance. That is a thousand times better than the reverse! :)

I personally have realized, the more I come closer to Christ, the more I realize those little minor sins, the things I blew off previously as no big deal, are more serious in keeping Jesus and myself from a closer union.

Ain't it the truth, brother! A little knowledge does carry its consequences. :)

You are DAILY given literally dozens of choices, those little things that you don't even think about, choices For or Against the Will of God.

I completely agree, and we DO experience making those little, but important, choices for or against God. My side's position is just that even for those little things, the real credit still goes to God. Part of the gift is our experience when we do good. The blessing is not only on the recipient of the good deed, but also to ourselves.

Note...EVERY REGENERATED HEART does NOT follow that path [to make Godly choices on smaller issues]. Some believe that "if I don't kill anyone, cheat on my wife, etc." I will be fine. But love is much more than that. Sure, God will guide us, but we must actively seek to "whether in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord". This is NOT automatic! It is a long process that must be attended to, with God's grace.

"IF" I am reading you correctly, why do you believe that a person, who basically "signs" John 3:16 and then goes and does his own thing, has a regenerated heart? Sure, this happens on a temporary basis in some cases, but it can't be permanent if the salvation was real.

I also agree that love is much more than that. I just believe that love comes only from God, not from within us. We don't have it to give. I still hold that from God's POV it is automatic to a truly regenerated heart. Of course, from our POV, we get to enjoy the struggle. :)

It's funny, I have already admitted my opinion that had I died while I was fallen away in college that I would not have been of the elect. Given my belief that my original salvation was secure (from my POV) when I said the sinner's prayer at 16, the only consistent corollary is that I was unknowingly INVINCIBLE during college! LOL! Believe me, based on some of the crap I pulled, this actually makes sense! :)

God bless.

You have an interesting way of looking at theosis and "election", FK. Let me suggest that when you speak of God "not allowing" the elect to fall away, you are surely expressing belief in predestination of the sort which The Church rejects The Church teaches that God foreknows all things but does not teach that that ipso facto means that He predestines all things. Similarly with the concept of the "elect", God foreknows who the elect will be; that doesn't mean that He presdestines anyone for election. I am sure that we have discussed this before on this thread, but when we as time defined beings discuss much of anything, we think and speak in terms of pre and post, the past, the future and the present. Such concepts would be of absolutely no use to W WN.

Our Triune God as W WN, is the ultimate of everything and then more than that. As such He is the ultimate in Free Will. If our created purpose, the potential attainment of which we lost at the Fall and regained by the Incarnation, is that men become "wholly gods", that is to say that we attain not only the image, but also the likeness of God, then our actions perforce are the result of our exercises of our divinely bestowed free will and that free will can be used to become like God, or to turn away from God in favor of mortal pleasures and pursuits. As Kosta says, God doesn't force anything on us and allows us to be completely free, free even to reject Him. Without the Incarnation, our free will could not be exercised in such a fashion as to attain theosis because we were in bondage to hades and death. Once that power was broken by the Incarnation, we were able to respond (yes, I know!) to the uncreated energies of God which had been raining down on us from the day of creation and futilely since the Fall, and by the exercise of our free will, choose to obey God and thereby receive the fire of the Holy Spirit in our souls. That fire leads to knowledge of God Who is The Truth, "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (Jn 8:32) Free to do what? To beome "wholly gods". But +John's use of the word "free" implies a true freedom, not simply a transference from a bondage to death to a slavery to some sort of divine puppet master. Again, it all comes back to two things. What was and is our created purpose and what really is meant by the English word "sin". The answers to those questions determine quite literally everything we believe about our role in Creation and our relationship to God both now and for eternity.

Yes. I will say that WE cannot know we are of the ELECT, although we can know that we "think" we are. Those whom God has specifically chosen (and we don't know if WE are) cannot falter in the end. If we "know", then the whole concept of faith and hope is worthless - there is no hope when we "know" already.

If the falling away proves permanent I would absolutely agree with you that the person was never of the elect.

Which does a lot of damage to your idea of salvation "now" vs. my idea. Again, a person whose falling away is "permanent" did not think he would do that 5 years ago, do you? Thus the danger of presumption.

My side's position is just that even for those little things, the real credit still goes to God.

We don't deny God is the primary mover. We believe, however, that God expects us to use the gifts He has given us. Thus, we are secondary movers - God enables us to do things, such as give birth to children and bring people to God for the purpose of salvation. I think you need to broaden your view of love. Love is a sharing of one's self. Why would God jealously not allow us to participate in His work? Is He that insecure? Of course not. We know He is the cause of all, both natural and supernatural. Our participation doesn't take anything away from God! HE MADE US!

Because we don't see Baptism as the final step in coming to God. We can blow it, from our point of view! Thus, we don't look to that date on the calendar as the day we were guaranteed heaven. There are many Christians who will say "Lord, Lord" and Jesus will respond - "I never knew you". That is a scary thought for those who think they are "saved" already...

I also agree that love is much more than that. I just believe that love comes only from God, not from within us.

We believe that EVERYTHING comes from God. I don't remember anyone saying that love is self-generated. It is from God just as much as faith is from God. When He abides within us, most substantially in the Eucharist, we ARE ABLE TO LOVE for the sake of the other person! What a joyous thing! It is not I, but Christ who lives within me!

I still hold that from God's POV it is automatic to a truly regenerated heart.

Well, I think you are placing God on some time-line. Being eternal doesn't mean God has lived for a long time. It means He sees EVERYTHING with ONE VIEW. Thus, our cooperation is seen at the same time as His decision to elect us. In this mystery, then, I see God calling us and we respond simultaneously (in His POV). Of course, we don't know the end of the story in our case. But we can see our progress of sanctification.

when I said the sinner's prayer at 16, the only consistent corollary is that I was unknowingly INVINCIBLE during college!

I think this again points to our limited knowledge of today has little to do with five years down the road. I think it is our definitions that probably make this more confusing then it needs to be. We view salvation from our point of view - thus, we can't know for certain if we will inherit heaven in the end. You appear to view salvation from God's point of view - the elect - who can never lose their salvation. Where I see the problem with your POV is that you assume you are of the elect because you have done the Sinner's prayer. I think we agree that it is more than that. Just recall the parable of the cockle and the wheat. They all look the same - until the harvest!

Regards