The term "saved irrevocably" is fully dependent on the POV. From our POV we can blow it. From God's, we're on the list or not. The flip side is that we CAN know, but not all do. Sanctification helps us get to full assurance. Part of this is the knowledge that God WON'T LET us blow it because of His promises.
Well, if you only would have said this in the first place! Whew. From our point of view, we can blow it. Correct. From God's point of view, the elect cannot blow it. The Sanctification process gives us increasing assuredness AND transforms us into the original image and likeness that God had intended for us (although not complete until heaven). This line of thought is much more in line with Catholic/Orthodox view on salvation, according to the Fathers of the Church. We can "know" we are saved by our present faith, how we conduct ourselves - faith working through love. And IF we are of the Elect, which we grow in confidence of yearly, we will realize that God will NOT allow us to blow it.
The point of this cross-examination was to get you to realize this key part of our faith - that from our POV, we must continue in humility, always working out our salvation in fear and trembling. It is NEVER a done deal until the day of our particular judgment. Thus, our sanctification is REAL. We ARE changing, being transformed. What God's Word says, He puts into action.
Could I chose to fall away permanently? NO WAY!!!
I sincerely doubt that people just wake up one day and say "I don't feel like believing in Christ anymore". I think it is a gradual process, often punctuated by a tragic event in where the person loses faith in the Lord altogether. Perhaps a person has not been taking his sanctification seriously, then his beloved wife and daughter are killed.
Some people would persevere under these circumstances, but others would blame God and not return. It is the way it is. We can judge "the person was never saved". I would say the person was never of the elect - but he didn't realize that. But the point I am making is that who knows what God has planned for us or whether we are going to be with God in heaven. That is the whole point of a judgment, correct? We are judged based on how we responsed to Christ.
I personally have realized, the more I come closer to Christ, the more I realize those little minor sins, the things I blew off previously as no big deal, are more serious in keeping Jesus and myself from a closer union. This also seems to be the experience of the official saints of the Church. As they grow closer to God, they realize how unworthy they are and how humble they must become to be more like Christ. For us to have life, we must have the Son. (1 John 5:12). What better way to have Christ abide in us than the Eucharist? It is a promise of everlasting life! "whoever eats my flesh...has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day". St. Ignatius (107 AD) called it the "medicine of immortality, the antidote against death", food that makes us "live together in Jesus Christ".
It's no pat on my back, it's what every regenerated heart does naturally.
Think about this. You are DAILY given literally dozens of choices, those little things that you don't even think about, choices For or Against the Will of God. We aren't talking about deciding to kill someone or not. But to become holy, you must also follow the little way. You must look to how you act in all things. We DO have the choice to restrain ourselves when someone makes a comment - whether it is a little dig at us, or a temptation to gossip, or an impure joke, or whatever. We DO have the choice to make Godly decisions in each of these situations - and they happen all of the time. Note...EVERY REGENERATED HEART does NOT follow that path. Some believe that "if I don't kill anyone, cheat on my wife, etc." I will be fine. But love is much more than that. Sure, God will guide us, but we must actively seek to "whether in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord". This is NOT automatic! It is a long process that must be attended to, with God's grace.
Brother in Christ
Except for timing of assurance (now vs. later) I would agree with all of this. I am just as surprised at your post :) I would not have expected you to say that (from God's POV) the elect cannot blow it, because I wasn't sure if we had relative definitions on who the elect were. I'd say that problem is solved. :) Now I feel that we're only an inch apart on this.
The point of this cross-examination was to get you to realize this key part of our faith - that from our POV, we must continue in humility, always working out our salvation in fear and trembling. It is NEVER a done deal until the day of our particular judgment. Thus, our sanctification is REAL. We ARE changing, being transformed. What God's Word says, He puts into action.
I agree that God's word is put into action. He will carry on to completion the good work He began in us. It's a promise. We count on it and it gives us assurance. Sanctification is very real, both from our POV and from God's.
[On someone who has fallen away after a personal tragedy:] We can judge "the person was never saved". I would say the person was never of the elect - but he didn't realize that. But the point I am making is that who knows what God has planned for us or whether we are going to be with God in heaven. ...
If the falling away proves permanent I would absolutely agree with you that the person was never of the elect. I also agree that we can never know what God has planned for us, but doesn't He make promises to us about who goes to heaven? I think maybe you and I look at these promises from two vantage points. One, as from a present condition met, and one as a future condition met. In either case it seems we agree on the premise, just not the assurance. That is a thousand times better than the reverse! :)
I personally have realized, the more I come closer to Christ, the more I realize those little minor sins, the things I blew off previously as no big deal, are more serious in keeping Jesus and myself from a closer union.
Ain't it the truth, brother! A little knowledge does carry its consequences. :)
You are DAILY given literally dozens of choices, those little things that you don't even think about, choices For or Against the Will of God.
I completely agree, and we DO experience making those little, but important, choices for or against God. My side's position is just that even for those little things, the real credit still goes to God. Part of the gift is our experience when we do good. The blessing is not only on the recipient of the good deed, but also to ourselves.
Note...EVERY REGENERATED HEART does NOT follow that path [to make Godly choices on smaller issues]. Some believe that "if I don't kill anyone, cheat on my wife, etc." I will be fine. But love is much more than that. Sure, God will guide us, but we must actively seek to "whether in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord". This is NOT automatic! It is a long process that must be attended to, with God's grace.
"IF" I am reading you correctly, why do you believe that a person, who basically "signs" John 3:16 and then goes and does his own thing, has a regenerated heart? Sure, this happens on a temporary basis in some cases, but it can't be permanent if the salvation was real.
I also agree that love is much more than that. I just believe that love comes only from God, not from within us. We don't have it to give. I still hold that from God's POV it is automatic to a truly regenerated heart. Of course, from our POV, we get to enjoy the struggle. :)
It's funny, I have already admitted my opinion that had I died while I was fallen away in college that I would not have been of the elect. Given my belief that my original salvation was secure (from my POV) when I said the sinner's prayer at 16, the only consistent corollary is that I was unknowingly INVINCIBLE during college! LOL! Believe me, based on some of the crap I pulled, this actually makes sense! :)
God bless.