. LOL! If I willfully sin (commit mortal sin), I am "unsaved". Again. Pretty clear - but we disagree! Wow, if we only had an authoritative interpretation on this. I guess we'll never know what if we can willfully sin and still enter heaven...
(1 Cor 10:12) To me, this whole passage boils down to "Don't be like the Jews in the desert. Some of them assumed they were saved and did whatever they wanted. They were wrong."
Yep. It is a model for us, as Paul says. He says the same things in Hebrews 3 and 4 (and the verse above). Don't be so sure about one's "salvation... Like the Jews, Christians can be cut from the vine (as Paul says in Romans...boy, he sure seems to teach this concept a lot, doesn't he?).
Habitual behavior like some of those Jews would be good evidence that they were not saved yet
That sounds like something a "works" salvation person would say! Isn't this so interesting? So when you make the sinner's prayer, you don't really know you are saved, because you first must see the "habitual behavior"? Hmm. :-)
(1 Cor 9:27) That's a pretty huge difference. All we can do is stick with our own, I suppose. :)
Being disqualified does not entitle a person who raced a prize, does it? Again, either a person is judged worthy for full entrance into heaven, or he is disqualified to hell. You are reading what is not there, even using your NIV (I presume), which is not the best of translations, being it is not a literal one.
I believe salvation is a one-time event WITH future included actions.
Please forgive me. It seems to me that you got me going in circles, after so many posts. Do you believe you are saved during the sinner's prayer or not? What role (if you are saved on that day) do actions play, then? Forgive me, but it seems you are going back and forth between "I'm saved eternally on Dec. 5, 2001" and "I am saved eternally, I think, on Dec. 5, 2001, but my actions verify that I am saved on Dec. 5, 2001" ??
There is no choice involved, there is no free will involved to do good. God runs everything.
Man has no free will? Oh, I hope we aren't going down that road again...Man is commanded to obey the Decalogue. A command implies the ability of the commanded to obey. I think people forget that God gives man the ability to be secondary causes. He does this out of love, to share with us, to allow us to participate in the divine nature.
We don't know what's going to happen so we don't know how our sanctification is going to take shape, but we do know that it will happen.
Along with
Sure, Christ carrying on His work until completion is necessary, but since it's a lock for the truly saved, I see it as being wrapped up for all intents and purposes initially
AHHHHHH! (Hair being pulled out). I'll never figure out this if you keep going back and forth! I thought you KNEW you were of the Elect! You are starting to sound Catholic - you don't know what will happen, but rely on God's graces to sanctify us. Well, let's keep talking!
OK, good. So, really our only disagreement on this topic is over the verses that describe to which degree men and/or satan can snatch us out of God's hand?
Satan cannot directly snatch us from God's hand (Romans 8) unless we WILL it, either directly or indirectly through laziness or the gradual falling away. There seems to be no doubt that WE can fall away, otherwise, Paul et al wouldn't need to continuously address such issues in their writings.
I am confident that I have been running my race for more than 15 years, and I only want to know God better and better. I have reached a place where I believe I can "rest" that God is stuck with me. :) But, I cannot quit on Him, so the "rest" is not out of complacency. God continues to affect me to want to run the race. I believe that God says He will not withdraw that from me, or allow me to choose against it permanently.
Well, it sounds like you have a fairly good indication of your current walk with Christ. I note that you are speaking of perseverance. That is important - because the Gospels warn us to always continue to run the race. Why? Because it is too easy to falter, to allow God's graces to fall in vain upon us. But as long as we run, we confidently hope that we are of the elect.
Brother in Christ
LOL! If I willfully sin (commit mortal sin), I am "unsaved". Again. Pretty clear - but we disagree! Wow, if we only had an authoritative interpretation on this. I guess we'll never know what if we can willfully sin and still enter heaven...
I don't understand your reaction at all. I was merely pointing out our difference. You would say that such a defiant sin changes a person from saved to unsaved. I would say such a sin means the person was never saved in the first place.
FK: "Habitual behavior like some of those Jews would be good evidence that they were not saved yet."
That sounds like something a "works" salvation person would say! Isn't this so interesting? So when you make the sinner's prayer, you don't really know you are saved, because you first must see the "habitual behavior"? Hmm. :-)
No, no, no. :) I meant that it would be good evidence to those of you all who NEED evidence, along with the Protestant believers who have not reached a certain level of sanctification. The mature Christian needs no evidence, he lives the evidence.
I will fully admit that probably most Protestants who say the sinner's prayer have no full clue what they really have after it's over. That was the case with me. It was years before I could say with confidence that I was 100% saved. I now know that I have no need to see any further evidence that isn't already a sure thing.
Being disqualified does not entitle a person who raced a prize, does it? Again, either a person is judged worthy for full entrance into heaven, or he is disqualified to hell. You are reading what is not there, even using your NIV (I presume), which is not the best of translations, being it is not a literal one.
I thought you were focusing on the "not running to an uncertain thing" part. I don't see Paul at all being unassured, I see him teaching that we should be mindful not to take a OSAS attitude, lest we be disqualified. I don't see how this SHOWS that Paul was unassured. What am I reading that isn't there?
Yes, I am using the NIV. I like it expressly because it isn't word for word, but rather idea for idea. I believe Kosta used a similar argument several posts ago to defend the belief in the Bible's inerrancy even given the various translations, sources, etc.
It seems to me that you got me going in circles, after so many posts. Do you believe you are saved during the sinner's prayer or not? What role (if you are saved on that day) do actions play, then?
Well, I may have explained what I mean better in a future post to yours that I'm responding to now, but I would say that salvation is complete in one moment "as far as we're concerned". God PROMISES that Christ will continue the good work that He began in us, so the future actions WILL happen.
We are not "concerned" about our salvation, it is complete from God's POV from the beginning of time. From our POV, it is complete at the sinner's prayer, SINCE the future included actions are automatically included in a true salvation. So, we don't WORRY about whether we will do them, we WILL, if the salvation was true. This is how we "rest".
Are future actions part of the picture? Yes. We don't wonder at all if they will occur because God already promises us that they will, if we are truly His children. God promises to keep us, as He loves His children. If I believe I can reasonably put myself into this picture of salvation, including all of God's promises, then I have assurance.
FK: "There is no choice involved, there is no free will involved to do good. God runs everything."
Man has no free will? Oh, I hope we aren't going down that road again...
This just goes to my holding that God deserves all the credit for all good done. We PERCEIVE in our existence that we participated in doing good, and even that we chose to do it. That doesn't make it real. Just like in your cookie story with the daughter.
FK: "We don't know what's going to happen so we don't know how our sanctification is going to take shape, but we do know that it will happen. [Along with] Sure, Christ carrying on His work until completion is necessary, but since it's a lock for the truly saved, I see it as being wrapped up for all intents and purposes initially."
AHHHHHH! (Hair being pulled out). I'll never figure out this if you keep going back and forth! I thought you KNEW you were of the Elect! You are starting to sound Catholic - you don't know what will happen, but rely on God's graces to sanctify us. Well, let's keep talking!
Please, save your hair! If I had any to spare I would give it to you. :) I am being perfectly consistent. If you look at my first statement, the key word is "so". That connects the first part to the second part. In the first part I am saying that we cannot tell the future in terms of specific events.
THEREFORE, I continue, we can't know exactly how our sanctification will play out. (I think I was saying this to show the usefulness of sanctification from our POV.) In the third part of my first statement I confirm the idea that we don't know HOW or WHEN we will do whatever good deeds we will ever do, BUT THAT they will happen for all those of the elect.
My second statement just backs this up. Yes, we do KNOW we are of the elect. We can't read the future in terms of specific events, but we know that whatever saving events or actions that are required to reach heaven will be achieved by God's elect. God promises us that this will happen. So, we can "rest", but not turn away. God promises that He won't let that (permanently fall away) happen either.
God Bless.