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To: jo kus; kosta50
FK: "On (Heb 10:26-27):) This particular passage in Hebrews speaks of a defiant sin, with "a high hand".

LOL! If I willfully sin (commit mortal sin), I am "unsaved". Again. Pretty clear - but we disagree! Wow, if we only had an authoritative interpretation on this. I guess we'll never know what if we can willfully sin and still enter heaven...

I don't understand your reaction at all. I was merely pointing out our difference. You would say that such a defiant sin changes a person from saved to unsaved. I would say such a sin means the person was never saved in the first place.

FK: "Habitual behavior like some of those Jews would be good evidence that they were not saved yet."

That sounds like something a "works" salvation person would say! Isn't this so interesting? So when you make the sinner's prayer, you don't really know you are saved, because you first must see the "habitual behavior"? Hmm. :-)

No, no, no. :) I meant that it would be good evidence to those of you all who NEED evidence, along with the Protestant believers who have not reached a certain level of sanctification. The mature Christian needs no evidence, he lives the evidence.

I will fully admit that probably most Protestants who say the sinner's prayer have no full clue what they really have after it's over. That was the case with me. It was years before I could say with confidence that I was 100% saved. I now know that I have no need to see any further evidence that isn't already a sure thing.

Being disqualified does not entitle a person who raced a prize, does it? Again, either a person is judged worthy for full entrance into heaven, or he is disqualified to hell. You are reading what is not there, even using your NIV (I presume), which is not the best of translations, being it is not a literal one.

I thought you were focusing on the "not running to an uncertain thing" part. I don't see Paul at all being unassured, I see him teaching that we should be mindful not to take a OSAS attitude, lest we be disqualified. I don't see how this SHOWS that Paul was unassured. What am I reading that isn't there?

Yes, I am using the NIV. I like it expressly because it isn't word for word, but rather idea for idea. I believe Kosta used a similar argument several posts ago to defend the belief in the Bible's inerrancy even given the various translations, sources, etc.

It seems to me that you got me going in circles, after so many posts. Do you believe you are saved during the sinner's prayer or not? What role (if you are saved on that day) do actions play, then?

Well, I may have explained what I mean better in a future post to yours that I'm responding to now, but I would say that salvation is complete in one moment "as far as we're concerned". God PROMISES that Christ will continue the good work that He began in us, so the future actions WILL happen.

We are not "concerned" about our salvation, it is complete from God's POV from the beginning of time. From our POV, it is complete at the sinner's prayer, SINCE the future included actions are automatically included in a true salvation. So, we don't WORRY about whether we will do them, we WILL, if the salvation was true. This is how we "rest".

Are future actions part of the picture? Yes. We don't wonder at all if they will occur because God already promises us that they will, if we are truly His children. God promises to keep us, as He loves His children. If I believe I can reasonably put myself into this picture of salvation, including all of God's promises, then I have assurance.

FK: "There is no choice involved, there is no free will involved to do good. God runs everything."

Man has no free will? Oh, I hope we aren't going down that road again...

This just goes to my holding that God deserves all the credit for all good done. We PERCEIVE in our existence that we participated in doing good, and even that we chose to do it. That doesn't make it real. Just like in your cookie story with the daughter.

FK: "We don't know what's going to happen so we don't know how our sanctification is going to take shape, but we do know that it will happen. [Along with] Sure, Christ carrying on His work until completion is necessary, but since it's a lock for the truly saved, I see it as being wrapped up for all intents and purposes initially."

AHHHHHH! (Hair being pulled out). I'll never figure out this if you keep going back and forth! I thought you KNEW you were of the Elect! You are starting to sound Catholic - you don't know what will happen, but rely on God's graces to sanctify us. Well, let's keep talking!

Please, save your hair! If I had any to spare I would give it to you. :) I am being perfectly consistent. If you look at my first statement, the key word is "so". That connects the first part to the second part. In the first part I am saying that we cannot tell the future in terms of specific events.

THEREFORE, I continue, we can't know exactly how our sanctification will play out. (I think I was saying this to show the usefulness of sanctification from our POV.) In the third part of my first statement I confirm the idea that we don't know HOW or WHEN we will do whatever good deeds we will ever do, BUT THAT they will happen for all those of the elect.

My second statement just backs this up. Yes, we do KNOW we are of the elect. We can't read the future in terms of specific events, but we know that whatever saving events or actions that are required to reach heaven will be achieved by God's elect. God promises us that this will happen. So, we can "rest", but not turn away. God promises that He won't let that (permanently fall away) happen either.

God Bless.

2,501 posted on 02/10/2006 10:30:46 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
You would say that such a defiant sin changes a person from saved to unsaved. I would say such a sin means the person was never saved in the first place.

If that were true, brother, than we can NEVER know that the sinner's prayer is effective! Catholics believe that God's grace in Baptism is ALWAYS effective. But then, some people later in life refuse God's graces given to them during Baptism - acting as the Prodigal Son when he left his father's house. If a person cannot know he was saved in the first place, then how do you know you are saved at all?

It was years before I could say with confidence that I was 100% saved. I now know that I have no need to see any further evidence that isn't already a sure thing

YOU determine whether you are saved or not? That doesn't strike me as a Biblical idea. It defies the idea of perseverance to the end! It defies the possibility of falling back into our former lives, as Peter mentioned. I reject the idea of absolute salvation because a person can ALWAYS choose evil - he can yield to temptation to return to that life of the flesh. Thus, Paul calls it spiritual warfare, not spiritual mopping up. Warfare presumes that one can lose the war.

I don't see Paul at all being unassured, I see him teaching that we should be mindful not to take a OSAS attitude, lest we be disqualified

If Paul thought that he could be disqualified, despite being "saved", that doesn't bode well for some Protestants who have said the sinner's prayer and rest on their laurels. Being disqualified means not receiving ANYTHING from the Lord. Does this not sound like hell?

We are not "concerned" about our salvation, it is complete from God's POV from the beginning of time. From our POV, it is complete at the sinner's prayer, SINCE the future included actions are automatically included in a true salvation. So, we don't WORRY about whether we will do them, we WILL, if the salvation was true. This is how we "rest".

If you are not concerned with your salvation, you are not of the same mind as Paul, who told the Phillipians to work out their salvation in fear and trembling. He told the Corinthians to beware, lest they fall. He told the Galatians that if they did certain things, they would NOT inherit the Kingdom of God - despite their baptised status. He told the readers of Hebrews that they could have their salvation taken away if they willfully sinned. Thus, if taken away, they MUST have had salvation to begin with (versus your idea that "a person never was saved to begin with). Paul tells the Romans that they will be judged based on what they do. I don't know about you, but even Paul seems to think along Catholic lines on this subject.

This just goes to my holding that God deserves all the credit for all good done. We PERCEIVE in our existence that we participated in doing good, and even that we chose to do it. That doesn't make it real. Just like in your cookie story with the daughter.

I don't think it is necessary to have God "pretend" anything with us. Everything that God gives to us is a gift. We return it back to Him - and He appreciates the use of His gifts in such a manner. Thus, we are not "fantasizing" in our participation. It MUST be participation, because we can't do it alone, and yet, God made us secondary causes. God doesn't need to fake our participation in His works, but He loves to share with us His divine nature (as Peter says).

I am being perfectly consistent. If you look at my first statement, the key word is "so". That connects the first part to the second part. In the first part I am saying that we cannot tell the future in terms of specific events.

It's OK, I have lots of hair! We don't know what's going to happen so we don't know how our sanctification is going to take shape, but we do know that it will happen.

When you say, "we don't know what is going to happen", what are you refering to? The process of sanctification, or the idea that we are saved? And "we do know that it will happen", again, the sanctification process, or being saved?

we don't know HOW or WHEN we will do whatever good deeds we will ever do, BUT THAT they will happen for all those of the elect.

Previously, you said we cannot know we are of the elect - since the sinner's prayer may not have "worked". So if "x" work of love occurs, it doesn't mean you are of the elect, does it? I think it only tells of our CURRENT status.

Yes, we do KNOW we are of the elect.

SEE! (More hair flying around. Beginning to look like a barber shop in here!) Thus, my confusion. If the sinner's prayer didn't take, you were never saved. This might occur after years of specific and daily loving actions done under the influence of the Spirit. But then the falling away occurs - and the reason - because you never were saved to begin with! And now you KNOW you are of the Elect...How??!! Those loving deeds by the "saved" person told him NOTHING of his future falling away!

If the possibility exists that you can fall away in the future, then potentially, you were never saved to begin with (which is what you are saying - although this line of reasoning is foreign to a Catholic - we ARE saved upon our Baptism - and become UNSAVED by willingly turning from God, as Hebrews 10:27 states).

Either you are saved irrevocably during the Sinner's Prayer, (making all talk about perseverance and sanctification worthless) or you don't really know, based on your future response to God. (making one's knowledge of the elect suspicious or uncertain at best).

Regards

2,512 posted on 02/11/2006 12:01:31 PM PST by jo kus
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