[jo kus]

Catholic or Orthodox friends would like us to believe the Protestantism just POPPED into existence 1500 years after they've been humming along. This is far from true

What are the pillars of Protestantism? Faith without works saves; The Bible alone is the rule of faith; man is imputed justification, rather than infused. Man is depraved totally and has no free will. Did I miss any major ones? Oh, and man is saved and cannot fall upon his baptism/sinner's prayer.

I would say that you will have a difficult time finding these innovations in the Fathers of the Church - and you CERTAINLY will not find them all in ANY Father. Thus, Protestantism as we know it did INDEED "pop" into existence during the 1500's. If you can point out ONE Church Father that holds even 3 of the 4 ideas simulataneously, you will have proved your point. It is a shame that you keep spouting off this nonsense about the Fathers. Perhaps you should actually read them. You will be surprised with what you can learn - even if you remain a Baptist/Reformed man. There is a lot of insight from reading their interpretations of Scriptures. Can we point to more holy men then them?

The Orthodox church built their theology around John Cassian, a student of Pelagius, both of whom were condemned by the western church as heretics. Many of us Reformers would argue that we are the remnant of the true western church. The Roman Catholics started heading east around 600AD and finally made the transition with Trent.

Mere assertions without a shred of evidence. This has been disproved here before. Don't you grow tired of this? I have asked you time and time again for such evidence of the changes between Orange 2 and Trent, but I never hear an answer...

The Synod of Dort countered the Remonstrant with the TULIP which stated while it IS possible for people to fall away, it will never happen simply because we are sustained by God's grace

A big leap of self-determination, as we can't know we are of the Elect in the FUTURE. Certainly, the Elect will be saved - but it is presumption to "write yourself" into that book. God might be holding you up as an example of the importance of perseverance to other Christians, only to bring you down later! "Wow, Harley seemed like such a good Christian, but look at him now...I guess I better work out my salvation in fear and trembling..." Who can say what God has planned for you. It is nonsense to presume you are of the elect.

My understanding on this whole OSAS mess is that over time there were some Arminians didn't like the idea of losing one salvation. It smack of works

You don't appear to understand the concept of works in the Bible. Work is not an action, but something we do for pay. Isn't it obvious I can do an action, but out of love and not for pay? Doesn't Christ leave us with ONE Commandment that sums up the Law?

I did not understand how one could fall away and still be a Christian.

Because we aren't Christian in name only. By severing YOURSELF from the Family of God, you are "Christian" by virtue of your Baptism, but this has little meaning if we later reject Christ. Re-read Matthew 7:21 again. The emphasis is on doing the Will of the Father, not on making verbal declarations at an altar call.

Regards

[HarleyD]

What are the pillars of Protestantism?

A person is saved by God's grace-period!!! Anything else (cooperation or man's faith) is the same Pelagius/Semi-Pelagius/Arminian argument simply expressed in different ways. On one side there is Calvinism; on the other side there is everything else. There is no middle ground.

I would say that you will have a difficult time finding these innovations in the Fathers of the Church - and you CERTAINLY will not find them all in ANY Father.

There is not ONE thing that you have that hasn't been given you by God including your faith. – Augustine (paraphrased)

There is a lot of insight from reading their interpretations of Scriptures.

Why should I read THEIR interpretation of scriptures when I can read the scriptures? While some of them had great insight others did not. Even Augustine, arguably the best theologian of the day, honorably retracted some of his works because they were in error. How many people didn’t do that? The Church simply picks and chooses what it likes. They throw out the rest. Protestants are no different except that our benchmark is the Bible. I can glean just as much “insight” from the scriptures as anyone else can if God so wills to whom we are to pray for wisdom and understanding.

I suppose you feel like Ignatius, “If I see white and the Church says it’s black, then it is black.” Augustine stated, “I reasoned…”. There is great insight into those two views.

Mere assertions without a shred of evidence. This has been disproved here before. Don't you grow tired of this?

This is one of the most bizarre statements I have come across. A simple Google search will show anyone that John Cassian is a highly regarded saint of the Orthodox belief. To save time for some please review The Semi-Pelagian Theology of John Cassian; Do Arminian Theology, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy Have Similar Roots? by another church father.

I find it odd that you find that you must deny this very fact. I would think you would proudly tout it.

A big leap of self-determination, as we can't know we are of the Elect in the FUTURE. Certainly, the Elect will be saved - but it is presumption to "write yourself" into that book.

Funny I thought the Catholic Church writes a bunch of people into the book including Mary, ST John Cassian, the humanist Sir Thomas More, and even soon to be Pope John Paul. Isn't the Church being presumptuous? How do they know who made it and who are of the elect? Someone says a prayer to a dead guy and is cured of cancer and it’s off to the official sainthood for that person so that people can start praying for their problem? If you pray to St Joseph and bury a statue by the real estate sign, he’ll help you sell your home? How positively medieval.

The fact is the ONLY one you can know about is yourself. Paul states to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) and he knew he had run the “good race”. Our Lord Jesus says, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them…”. He gave us His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge (2 Cor 1:22).

And how do I know that I’m part of the elect? Feelings? Intuition? Cures from cancer or lighting candles? Not hardly. I base my salvation upon God’s word and His divine promises. Abraham BELIEVED God and it WAS (past tense) accounted as righteousness. God said it and I have faith (imputed to me by God's mercies) that God will bring it to pass.

"God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken , and will He not make it good? Num 23:19

Of course, if you doubt whether God's word is accurately put together then that does become a problem. I don't have that problem.

You don't appear to understand the concept of works in the Bible. Work is not an action, but something we do for pay. Isn't it obvious I can do an action, but out of love and not for pay?

Sure, you can do an action. So what? Lots of bad people throughout history did some good things-even some of the bad kings in the Bible. But any work that comes from us must initially come from God. Our Lord Jesus said, “I am the vine you’re the branches. Without me you can do nothing.”

There is not one thing that we haven’t been given-including our works.

By severing YOURSELF from the Family of God, you are "Christian" by virtue of your Baptism, but this has little meaning if we later reject Christ. Re-read Matthew 7:21 again.

Wrong. You are a Christian because God choose you and gave you the faith to believe in Him. You will never reject Him simply because of His grace. It is arrogance to think that you can “maintain” your salvation when we are solely dependent on God’s grace and mercy.

As for Matthew 7 (and 25), those who cry out “Lord, Lord did we not do [fill in the blank]” are the ones who are rejected from heaven because they thought they could get into heaven by doing all sorts of “nice” things. Those who were welcomed in heaven were those who stated, “Lord, WHEN did we do these things?” They didn’t even realize they had done anything. Their works was a natural output of their faith.