[HarleyD]

What are the pillars of Protestantism?

A person is saved by God's grace-period!!! Anything else (cooperation or man's faith) is the same Pelagius/Semi-Pelagius/Arminian argument simply expressed in different ways. On one side there is Calvinism; on the other side there is everything else. There is no middle ground.

I would say that you will have a difficult time finding these innovations in the Fathers of the Church - and you CERTAINLY will not find them all in ANY Father.

There is not ONE thing that you have that hasn't been given you by God including your faith. – Augustine (paraphrased)

There is a lot of insight from reading their interpretations of Scriptures.

Why should I read THEIR interpretation of scriptures when I can read the scriptures? While some of them had great insight others did not. Even Augustine, arguably the best theologian of the day, honorably retracted some of his works because they were in error. How many people didn’t do that? The Church simply picks and chooses what it likes. They throw out the rest. Protestants are no different except that our benchmark is the Bible. I can glean just as much “insight” from the scriptures as anyone else can if God so wills to whom we are to pray for wisdom and understanding.

I suppose you feel like Ignatius, “If I see white and the Church says it’s black, then it is black.” Augustine stated, “I reasoned…”. There is great insight into those two views.

Mere assertions without a shred of evidence. This has been disproved here before. Don't you grow tired of this?

This is one of the most bizarre statements I have come across. A simple Google search will show anyone that John Cassian is a highly regarded saint of the Orthodox belief. To save time for some please review The Semi-Pelagian Theology of John Cassian; Do Arminian Theology, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy Have Similar Roots? by another church father.

I find it odd that you find that you must deny this very fact. I would think you would proudly tout it.

A big leap of self-determination, as we can't know we are of the Elect in the FUTURE. Certainly, the Elect will be saved - but it is presumption to "write yourself" into that book.

Funny I thought the Catholic Church writes a bunch of people into the book including Mary, ST John Cassian, the humanist Sir Thomas More, and even soon to be Pope John Paul. Isn't the Church being presumptuous? How do they know who made it and who are of the elect? Someone says a prayer to a dead guy and is cured of cancer and it’s off to the official sainthood for that person so that people can start praying for their problem? If you pray to St Joseph and bury a statue by the real estate sign, he’ll help you sell your home? How positively medieval.

The fact is the ONLY one you can know about is yourself. Paul states to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) and he knew he had run the “good race”. Our Lord Jesus says, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them…”. He gave us His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge (2 Cor 1:22).

And how do I know that I’m part of the elect? Feelings? Intuition? Cures from cancer or lighting candles? Not hardly. I base my salvation upon God’s word and His divine promises. Abraham BELIEVED God and it WAS (past tense) accounted as righteousness. God said it and I have faith (imputed to me by God's mercies) that God will bring it to pass.

"God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken , and will He not make it good? Num 23:19

Of course, if you doubt whether God's word is accurately put together then that does become a problem. I don't have that problem.

You don't appear to understand the concept of works in the Bible. Work is not an action, but something we do for pay. Isn't it obvious I can do an action, but out of love and not for pay?

Sure, you can do an action. So what? Lots of bad people throughout history did some good things-even some of the bad kings in the Bible. But any work that comes from us must initially come from God. Our Lord Jesus said, “I am the vine you’re the branches. Without me you can do nothing.”

There is not one thing that we haven’t been given-including our works.

By severing YOURSELF from the Family of God, you are "Christian" by virtue of your Baptism, but this has little meaning if we later reject Christ. Re-read Matthew 7:21 again.

Wrong. You are a Christian because God choose you and gave you the faith to believe in Him. You will never reject Him simply because of His grace. It is arrogance to think that you can “maintain” your salvation when we are solely dependent on God’s grace and mercy.

As for Matthew 7 (and 25), those who cry out “Lord, Lord did we not do [fill in the blank]” are the ones who are rejected from heaven because they thought they could get into heaven by doing all sorts of “nice” things. Those who were welcomed in heaven were those who stated, “Lord, WHEN did we do these things?” They didn’t even realize they had done anything. Their works was a natural output of their faith.

[annalex]

I can read the scriptures

Convince me.

[Rhadaghast]

Keep working HarleyD, But I think those you preach too only will ever believe that their club is right.

They would rather be 'right' than fellowship with God. It is very hard to depend on the holy spirit for your complete guidance. It is much easier to say, these guys are the ones God chose we follow them and what they say.

The discussion for me has never been sola Scripture (bad spelling mine). It has been truthfully SolaPnemata - The Spirit of God alone guides his people. John 10:27.

Good luck on convincing these on this thread. But God is the only one that can change them through his spirit, if they will allow it.

Great points by the way.

[jo kus]

A person is saved by God's grace-period!!! Anything else (cooperation or man's faith) is the same Pelagius/Semi-Pelagius/Arminian argument simply expressed in different ways. On one side there is Calvinism; on the other side there is everything else. There is no middle ground.

Again, I remind you of something called "secondary causes". We all partake in them. We cooperate to bring life into the world with women, don't we? WE are secondary causes of life's greatest gift. This is God's Will. He doesn't strictly need men and women to create new people. HE CREATED US TO BE SECONDARY CAUSES, Harley! As it has been explained before, God is Love. He is the supreme giver of self. Thus, He shares the fact that He is the primary cause by ALLOWING us to be secondary causes. We are secondary causes in life. This does not take away anything from God - it merely shows His Love. If you'd read the Church Fathers more, you'd see this more clearly. St. Augustine certainy teaches about secondary causes.

I wrote : I would say that you will have a difficult time finding these innovations in the Fathers of the Church - and you CERTAINLY will not find them all in ANY Father.

You replied There is not ONE thing that you have that hasn't been given you by God including your faith. – Augustine (paraphrased)

And that is your proof that Protestant ideas and theology was found in the Church Fathers? Avoiding the obvious will not solve the problem. Protestantism is an innovation, not found in the Church Fathers. Can you show me otherwise?

Why should I read THEIR interpretation of scriptures when I can read the scriptures?

Because these men were undeniably more holy than all of us. The Spirit of God speaks more clearly to those who are not attached to the things of this world. I believe many Protestants teach the same thing - God's voice is clearer when we remove the distractions in our lives. Those men certainly removed distractions! Right, Kolo? You might learn something from them.

Protestants are no different except that our benchmark is the Bible

I am going to have to disagree. Your benchmark is your OWN INTERPRETATION of the Words found in the Scripture. I get tired of hearing that, quite frankly. God doesn't speak to you individually and infallibly to point out what verse "A" means. The fact is that you have a belief, then you proof- text it. You have been doing this for months now on your "man has no free will" kick, even though people toss you verses back that say that men DO have free will. This is enough for me to determine that you read your own theology into the Scriptures and refuse to hear anything else that contradicts that idea. Thus, YOU are the benchmark.

A simple Google search will show anyone that John Cassian is a highly regarded saint of the Orthodox belief.

I know that St. John Cassian is highly regarded as a saint in the Orthodox. I will let our Kolokotronis respond on him. But this proves your thesis? That Protestantism has existed before Luther and that the entire Church has wrongly taught Semi-Pelagianism? Go back to read Orange 2 and stop repeating that incessant mantra that the Catholic Church followed Cassian's teachings...

Funny I thought the Catholic Church writes a bunch of people into the book including Mary

They are in heaven. We are not. You are speculating on your future. We are not speculating on Mary's CURRENT status. I don't see your connection.

Someone says a prayer to a dead guy and is cured of cancer and it’s off to the official sainthood for that person so that people can start praying for their problem?

IF the Church determines that a REAL miracle occured, and if God is the cause of miracles, then it is safe to assume that God is telling us that He has answered the intercessionary prayers with a "yes". This is called knowledge by inference. We use it everyday.

If you pray to St Joseph and bury a statue by the real estate sign, he’ll help you sell your home? How positively medieval.

That's idiotic superstition that is not taught by the Church...

Paul states to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) and he knew he had run the “good race". Our Lord Jesus says, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them…”.

Yes, thank you - Paul says HAD, not WILL. Paul is analyzing his past race! As to Jesus, what does He say about people "breaking" into the sheepfold without going through the Gate? How do you know you are of the sheepfold? Jesus is saying HIS SHEEP will hear Him, not those who THINK they are of the sheepfold. You can't force your way in, nor wish your way in.

I base my salvation upon God’s word and His divine promises.

God didn't provide any assurance to HarleyD, but to the Elect. I don't find you mentioned anywhere in the Scriptures. Nor am I. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure... See the cooperation, all based on God's Graces?

But any work that comes from us must initially come from God. Our Lord Jesus said, “I am the vine you’re the branches. Without me you can do nothing.”

Good. He says HE ABIDES IN US. Thus, when I do something, Christ's abiding in me enables me to do "X", which is salvific. WE, Christ and I, do it together. When you do something with another person, you can say "we" or "I" did something, because you were involved. Thus, we can say we cooperate secondarily - we are the secondary cause of an action - but God is primarily moving our will (see Phil 2:12-13 above)

You are a Christian because God choose you and gave you the faith to believe in Him.

You are forgeting, again, the idea of secondary causes. Yes, God gives us faith. Trent declares that, too. There is nothing we can do to bring about initial faith. However, it is clear from Scripture that we ALSO respond to God's grace. We can refuse God's grace. Thus, we are secondary causes regarding our response to God. We can choose to remain attached to money, we can choose not to read the Bible, we can choose to do good to our neighbors. All of this presumes that God is the primary cause of all - but He enables His creation to "cause" things, as well.

Regarding Mat 25, "They didn’t even realize they had done anything."

Where does it say that? They actually didn't know they gave "x" to Christ, not that they didn't do anything!

Regards