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To: Forest Keeper
How do you explain Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"?

If you read Chapter 3 from the beginning, it speaks about the Jews and the fact that they received the Law (v. 2). It then asks, is it something for which the Jews should be excelled (v. 9), and answers, -No. The Jewish law does not redeem. Previously, in Chapter 1, the pagan Greeks got their treatment and were found even worse. Both Jews and Greeks have "no fear of God before their eyes" (vv 11-18). St. Paul concludes that "by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified" (v 20).

It is in this context that he declared that "all have sinned and need the glory of God". It is clear now, is it not, that "all" refers to the Jews who rely on the law of Moses and the pagan Greeks who only have natural law. It does not refer to the Christians at all, -- it describes the state of mankind before the sanctifying grace of Christ.

Because of other scripture we know that man has an inclination to sin even after he received the Gospel of Christ. But this particular scripture, culminating in verse 23, does not speak to their condition.

We agree, of course, that sinlessness is exceptional, and sin is normal. Nevertheless, most would agree that children before the age of reason did not sin. Thus, even outside of the exceptional position of Mary and St. John the Baptist not literally "all" have sinned.

2,246 posted on 02/02/2006 7:21:42 PM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
[Re: Rom. 3:23] If you read Chapter 3 from the beginning, it speaks about the Jews and the fact that they received the Law (v. 2). It then asks, is it something for which the Jews should be excelled (v. 9), and answers, -No. The Jewish law does not redeem. Previously, in Chapter 1, the pagan Greeks got their treatment and were found even worse. Both Jews and Greeks have "no fear of God before their eyes" (vv 11-18). St. Paul concludes that "by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified" (v 20).

It is in this context that he declared that "all have sinned and need the glory of God". It is clear now, is it not, that "all" refers to the Jews who rely on the law of Moses and the pagan Greeks who only have natural law. It does not refer to the Christians at all, -- it describes the state of mankind before the sanctifying grace of Christ.

This kind of reasoning is precisely why I am a protester. Sometimes it seems that the only way for Catholicism to work is to throw out the plain meaning of the verse. Notice that the verb and form used in Rom. 3:23 is EXACTLY the same used in Rom. 5:12 -

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— ...

I don't see any reasonable interpretation that says this does not refer to ALL of mankind, save Jesus. This is why I will not trust any hierarchy. The need for a preferred philosophy requires stretching scripture into the most unnatural shapes. I know that you will say that your hierarchy has special insight directly from God, but it doesn't make sense to me that God would write so cryptically. ("All" doesn't mean "All") I think of Christianity as being a revealed religion, not to just a few hierarchs.

2,303 posted on 02/05/2006 12:59:23 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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