Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
I know I was simply making sure that no one takes the "death" of the soul to mean total "depravity."
I think we both agree that Baptism restores us to grace, and from there on we are capable of theosis (santicification). If we fail, it is not for the lack of grace.
Why do you think the Church canonized the Scriptures? To protect the inspired works of the Faith once delivered from forgeries (such as various Gnostic "gospels" our media call "Chirstian").
Besides, this is not some "corruption" of the Church at Trent; this is something that was taught by the Church (Greek and Latin) from the beginning.
The Spirit leads each person individually, only? You sure? It seems to me that the Spirit leads the entire Church as one "man", not as an independent body of believers. This concept is totally foreign to Scripture. The problem here is that you are inserting the American ideals of democracy into the Bible - rugged individualism. The idea that the Bible interprets itself is also foreign to Scriptures. It doesn't contradict itself, but it certainly doesn't interpret itself. Reading the OT itself without the mind of the Church will NOT yield that Jesus Christ is the Messiah - it actually denies it in the literal sense:
"And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;)" Deut 21:22-23
This is a huge reason why so many Jews didn't convert. They were Sola Scriptura Jews who read only the literal sense of Scriptures, not seeing Christ in the many prophesies.
Protestant views can be different. The Spirit reveals only the truth and men appropriate it to varying degrees. Sanctification improves the correctness of the apprehension of the Spirit's revelations. Christians grow in their faiths and are able to accept higher understandings.
The problem with this "system" is that one never knows the truth...
I think the passage in 2 Tim. means that all scripture, what is now called the OT and NT, is God's inspired word
I think you are reading what is not there. 2 Timothy was written before other NT books. You have made a giant presumptuitive leap.
Within only its pages are contained absolutely everything that any Christian could possibly need to know to be exactly the kind of Christian God wishes us to be
It doesn't say that. You destroy your own concept of Sola Scriptura!!! It's a far cry from "Scripture is USEFUL" to "Scripture is absolutely EVERYTHING"
Nothing else is necessary for Christians to be completely and utterly equipped and complete.
You should read the Scriptures more often. Eph 4:11-13 gives us another "thing" that "utterly equips and perfects the Christian", and it isn't the Bible. If you are serious about the Written Word of God, you would take it ALL into account, not whatever you feel like.
Regards
I'm not sure I picked up on that difference. Do you think the author was saying that holders of OSAS are against predestination? Perhaps that is decided by what a "professing" Christian is. At the end of the article, it means "fake" Christian, but at the beginning, it looks like it is supposed to refer to a real Christian, although I've never really met one who actually thinks it is fine to go out and sin away after accepting Christ. Even so, I took "professing" to just mean after salvation, by either free will or predestination.
"I would refer back to King Josiah when Judah found the writings sealed in a room within the temple during renovations. The scriptures tells us that when the books were opened and read, the people wept.
How did Judah know it was really God's writings? They hadn't heard it for centuries. That, is simply the power of the word of God. There are moments of great darkness and moments of great illumination."
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Great point. I had forgotten this event. As always the answer can be found in SCRIPTURE.
With all due respects to +Chrysostomos, there are several things that are being overlooked. First, Christ states very plainly that He is the "door of the sheep" and all who enters "will be saved" (John 10:7-9) What Chrysostomos is proposing is that we can enter the door and leave. But our Lord stated, "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." (John 10:9) One cannot leave.
Secondly, our Lord states, "I am the good shepherd and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me" (John 10:14) Our Lord plainly states that He knows who are His own. How could one turn from Him that Christ already knows? Christ states that "I must bring them and they will hear my voice" (John 10:16)
Finally, please note there are those who are NOT Christ's sheep (v 26) and there are those are (v 27). We're given to Christ by the Father (v 10:29). This, by the way, is a recurring theme throughout John (v 6:39, 6:44, etc.)
Chrysostomos mistakenly takes the vineyard example and applies it "to every soul". This is not what our Lord is saying and many people stray into error by presuming something not there. In the vineyard example, our Lord Jesus is speaking about the covenant being taken away from the Jews.
I'm not sure what Luther's interpretation is but I can certainly read the text.
Not this again so soon!!! Wait for 4,000 posts and then we'll bring up "tradition" again. :O)
Then it is not a "gift". You have "done" something for salvation. Whether it is exercising "faith" or taking the Eucharist, you are adding to the work of God.
Your knowledge of Scripture is quite lacking and you ignore what it plainly says:
"when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:20-21.
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16
"How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom 6:2-4
"you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:11
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" Col 2:11-13
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" Titus 3:5-6
This gives a pretty clear meaning to : "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5
"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)" Heb 10:22-23
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Ez 36:24-28
Clearly, you must not remember these Scriptures that tell us that Baptism is necessary for salvation. We are united to Christ's Passion and Death THROUGH Baptism, as Paul points out. You want access to Christ's redemptive work, you must be baptized.
we DO get Baptized because we have faith. A regenerated heart wants to love and obey. Baptism is in obedience. You say that you get Baptized because Christ commands it, but who cares about following Christ's commands who is without faith? No one. Faith comes first and is essential to following Christ's commands.
Adults get baptized because of their faith in Christ, but without the washing of Baptism, we don't have faith. How can one say they have faith without obeying the commands of Christ? It seems like a very shallow "faith", a dead faith.
Regards
"...it looks like it is supposed to refer to a real Christian, although I've never really met one who actually thinks it is fine to go out and sin away after accepting Christ. Even so, I took "professing" to just mean after salvation, by either free will or predestination."
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I've had the same experience in that, I've never seen or heard of instances where Christians were encouraged to sin after making a plea to the LORD to Save them. So I'm figuring that the difference between OSAS and POTS is the way in which we came to that moment. After being justified the HOLY SPIRIT seals us and preserves us.
"JESUS will not lose any the Father has given him."
No, that is not necessary. The Church only 'rules' on such matters when heretics come forward and teach something that doesn't match the Faith. Thank God for the Church, as we'd never know the truth...
Since the Holy Spirit does not speak to you as a layman
How sad. You continue to ignore posts from us that speak the opposite. The Spirit speaks to individuals during Scritpure reading! But He doesn't do it AGAINST the Church's teachings, because the Spirit was given to protect the Church, not individuals.
I have said before that I think that the Apostles taught correctly. After that, it's anyone's guess
What basis do you use to say that the Apostles taught correctly, but "who knows after that"? Where the Apostles super geniuses? Is God unable to lead people after those 12 supermen died?
None of this saves any of them from potential corruption. Men are fallible.
Jesus made it quite clear that He chooses damaged goods to fulfill God's Will. Consider what Paul says about himself, yet, God worked powerfully AND INFALLIBLY through him.
That's what teaching FROM the Bible (or from the teachings of the Bible) is for. We support that. Baptists spend tens of millions of dollars a year sending missionaries to countries where the Bible hasn't even been translated in their language yet, or is otherwise illegal for a person to own. The teachings go forward, and we believe it is God's will. Sola Scriptura includes oral teaching.
Well, that is good that Protestants send missionaries, except that they USUALLY are sent to Catholic countries to conduct proselytism, tickling the ears with false doctrine. And if they teach what YOU have been advocating on these posts, I wonder about the "Traditions" they are learning, since it sounds like you have a "cut and paste" Scripture. Case in point is that "Baptism does not save", despite nearly ten verses I posted otherwise.
In the West, there was a concerted effort to keep the Bible inaccessible to the layman, supposedly for his own good. I don't buy it for a second.
I don't buy that the Church kept the Bible inaccessible to laymen, either.
Regards
The Church was trying to PROTECT man by preventing heretics from changing the Word of God to suit their own twisted concepts, like Luther's addition of "alone" to Romans 3:28. Tyndale's "bible" was even worse. A person reading these contortions would not get the Word of God, but the Word of some man. Wouldn't you expect the Church to prevent this from happening?
Regards
I think our views are still pretty much the same on this issue.
Regards
I'm not sure I remember saying anything like that. :) However, I do believe that the Reformation itself was caused by God.
Throughout the OT, despite the Jews's sinfulness, God NEVER had the prophets start a whole new religion. Christ fulfilled the Jewish religion. It's done.
Now come on, in Catholicism, nothing is ever REALLY done, is it? :)
Luther and company are quite similar to Korah. Wanting to place themselves in power over God's appointed instruments, as bad as they might have been in leading the sheep.
Good example, let's see what happened:
Num. 16:31-32 : 31 As soon as he [Moses] finished saying all this, the ground under them [Korah, et al.] split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions.
We're still Heeeeeere. :) Therefore, God must have fully ordained and commanded the Reformation.
And how the heck do you KNOW WHOM the Father has given to Jesus while we are on this side of heaven??? Entrance into the Church does NOT guarantee the Kingdom.
Regards
Oh, we are back to "God causes sin" again...I forgot you guys believe that. More properly, God ALLOWED it to happen. Without it, the Council of Trent wouldn't have come about in its form, nor would the Counter Reformation. See? God brings about great good even out of evil!
Now come on, in Catholicism, nothing is ever REALLY done, is it? :)
We are told to persevere. Until the end. Take it up with the Sacred Scriptures that you purport to support.
We're still Heeeeeere. :) Therefore, God must have fully ordained and commanded the Reformation.
The Old Testament story of Korah is not meant to be taken as a literal example for future rebels to God's People. Does the Earth open up and swallow atheists today? Hitler? Stalin? The point of the story is to say that God WILL punish such people. In the context, God condemns such ring leaders to hell, eternal death. I'd rethink your logic.
Regards
No, it is not us adding to the work of God. It is God working through us to add to His work. Exercising faith or taking the Eucharist is His helping us to respond to His call. It's our work only if we reject His call.
It is always a gift, because no one will die in a perfect state of theosis, so whatever sins you may have left will be forgiven by none other than God's grace. God is under no obligation or necessity (as your aside believes) to save you regardless just because you proclaimed "Lord, Lord" once in your life and are now "saved."
And YES we have to "DO" in order to be saved. We are responsible for our conduct and morality and virtue that God gave us. First and foremost, we have to repent. Not once, but over and over, because you sin over and over. We have to show works through faith. We have to become as Christ-like, as god-like as possible wihtin our life-time, as perfect as possible.
God doesn't expect us to succeed in becoming perfect, but if we fail we must HONESTLY fail by honestly TRYING to succeed. Yes sir, it's a struggle: first the cross, then the crown.
I wouldn't disagree with this statement. However, I would ask you, if God truly helps us to respond to His call, will we fail? If so, why?
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