Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
"God calls out of darkness; he does not call into darkness, and he does not appoint to stumble, marry five wives and start a church of England, or invent TULIP theologies."
Harley, your "stiff neckness" is admirable, but you have arrayed against you the "Balkan Mountain Bandit Brotherhood" of FormerLib, Kosta, Alex and yours truly. You've no more chance against us than a wounded Turk dragging himself from a battlefield under our malevolent gaze! :) Hope you had a nice, if early, Pascha, my friend, though truth be told, if your theology is right, I can't imagine why a Calvinist would celebrate the day.
Okay. I'll go with that. :)
You are scaring me now. That is precisely what Islam believes. If that is so, why would God then flood the earth, and rain fire, as you say, on the wicked men? Aren't they wicked because it's God's will?
Do they? It's "not in the Bible," so it's not like "Jesus said so." And it must be a "tradition of men." Or, maybe they just like the hard-boiled eggs. But, most likely they will tell you because "it's the will of God." Everything else is. :)
Harley D No one can ome unto Me...John 6:44 and So if the Son makes you free...John 6:44
So, in other words you do believe that non- Christians are all evil people?
If that is so, why would God then flood the earth, and rain fire, as you say, on the wicked men? Aren't they wicked because it's God's will?
Are you saying that it is against God's will that any wicked man becomes wealthy or is in authority? Does God not care and leave that alone? What do you make of this passage:?
John 19:10-11a : 10 "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?" 11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."
"Man has free will, given by God, since we were made in His image."
Then how do you account for the universality of sin, ie.e. "there is none righteous (excepting the Lord Jesus) no not one"? "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God". You would think if man had true free will there would be at least one who always made the right choices.
Choices of the will are determined by man's character or they are ethically worthless and are of no moral value. Character is determined by culture, education, parenting, experiences and physical, intellectual and emotional abilities. How then can you say choices are "free" when the are conditioned so?
Ah, but the Lord in His steadfastness has reminded me that:
I sure He was talking about us Calvinists. How can I lose? :O)
"So, in other words you do believe that non- Christians are all evil people?"
If you are defining evil as sin the answer has to be yes otherwise Christ died in vain.
" I sure He was talking about us Calvinists. How can I lose? :O)"
Nope. Greeks, Serbs and other Balkan and Slavic types. I know because my great grandmother told me! :)
'Course, maybe you Calvinists are Balkan wannabees?
What would they have named TUPIP if it had been thought up in a place were only Daisies grew, I wonder?
Simple:
Depravity is Total.
Atonement is Limited.
Irresistible Grace.
Saints will Persevere in the End.
Y'all Are Gonna Be Saved If God Says So.
:)
Here's a few:
Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Mat 7:11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Mat 12:34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
Mat 12:35 "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
Mar 7:21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Joh 3:19-20 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Joh 7:7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
Atonement is Limited.
Irresistible Grace.
Saints will Persevere in the End.
Y'all Are Gonna Be Saved If God Says So.
Amazing what you can come up with when you make it up as you go! :-D
I have no clue where you got your information from regarding Catholicism. God created man good and this "original man" was indeed created with God's righteousness. Perhaps you are confused with man AFTER the fall, in which man's nature is wounded without this "superadded gift". The gift of grace was given to Adam, and is given to us through Baptism.
Our ideas of anthropology largely differ on the status of fallen man. You say man is totally evil and does not even possess a will, while we say man is wounded. In either case, I believe we agree that man cannot achieve righteousness on his own.
The charge of Manichaeanism is unfounded. As I have mentioned, we are a sacramental people. I ask you to research what "sacrament" means.... I would say that those who are anti-sacramental are closer to Manichaeanism, since they separate worship of the "spirit" from the senses of the body. In essence, the pot is calling the kettle black, and why I found your charge ludicruous. We don't separate body from soul. We realize we are an amalgamation of the two. I would say that the Reformers are the ones who make the Platonic separation between body and soul.
regards
AHH, I'm feeling the tractor beam sucking me back...
I've been reading St. Augustine's "The Problem of Free Choice". I find it an interesting read, quite in line with what Catholics and Orthodox have been saying all along. You might be interested in Book 3, Section 2.4, God's Foreknowledge, and Book 3, Section 4.9 to 8.23, To Foresee Sin is not to cause it.
But you don't really want to argue this forever now, do you? Do you think there is any argument not brought forward yet?
"God foreknows what we shall will in the future, this does not imply that we do not make us of our will. With regard to happiness, you said you do not make yourself happy, as if I denied it. I say that when you will be happy, you will be happy through your will and not against it. Because God foreknows your future happiness, and because nothing can happen otherwise than as He has foreknown - to deny this would be to deny His foreknowledge - it does not follow that we must suppose you will not be happy through your own will. This would be absurd...
The Foreknowledge of God, which is certain even today of your future happiness, does not take away your will to be happy, when you begin to be happy. So too, if your will in the future is sinful, it will not cease to be your will, because God has foreknown what will happen."
I want you to realize how blind you would be if we said: If God has foreknown my future will, because nothing can happen contrary to His foreknowledge, I must necessarily will what He has foreknown. But, if this is necessary, I must admit that I will of necessity, and not through my will. How utterly foolish this would be!"(Augustine, The Problem of Free Choice, Book 3, 3.7)
So says St. Augustine...
Thus, to say that God's foreknowledge = God's causing is to then make God's foreknowledge equally responsible for goodness AND sin. I don't see how one can deny, then, that God would be the cause of sin, which St. Augustine and many others deny emphatically.
But we've already said all of that!
Regards
Why? That logic doesn't follow. Even the Old Testament Jews didn't require or expect people to be perfect to be considered righteous in God's eyes. One who walks in faith is a concept found in the Old Testament. There are numerous people who are considered righteous - and I doubt were perfect.
How then can you say choices are "free" when the are conditioned so?
Society doesn't invariably control the individual, no matter how much you believe what the press tells us. Do you think EVERY German during World War 2 hated Jews? Did every single German "follow their indoctrination"? You are basically saying that there is no such thing as an absolute truth in morality. This concept of relativism is firmly refuted by the Church throughout its history.
Regards
God gave man the priviledge of dominion (in His image). That is a gift to humanity (unlike angels, who are created as servants), but not to anyone in particular. So, what Jesus said is true, of course, but is taken to mean that God somehow decides who will dominate whom. Man was not created to dominate other men; tha fact that he does, is absue of the powers God gave us, just as we abuse our free will.
Right on the mark! Our "natural" state is body+soul. Which is why the Church always taught that our existence in a spiritual state after the physical death, and until the Final Judgemnt, is an unnatural state of discomfort even for those souls destined for bliss, which is why we pray for and commemorate them in the Church.
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